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digitalmars.D - Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle

reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
Hope no-one minds..

I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 19 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


Can you give us a summary or synopsis?
Nov 19 2012
next sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Walter Bright:


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


It's not easy to summarize it. Many talks are little more than 
the slides they are based on, but this talk contains lot of 
graphics and animation, it's really a talk that you have to see 
if you want to appreciate its contents, because it's mostly about 
visual ideas.

It discusses about using visualization to help design code and 
program, and more. This talk is now famous, it was a start of a 
little "revolution". After that talk many developments have 
happened. Maybe even the future LightTable IDE was inspired a bit 
by it. I have seen Khan and his academy software follow some of 
the ideas contained in that talk to teach JavaScript, and then I 
have seen another talk explain similar ideas better, and then 
other people criticize it a lot.

In the end part of me likes those ideas, and part of me doesn't 
like it. To teach things like StarLogo are in my opinion better 
for newbie programmers, but that talk is not just about new 
programmers. Some of those ideas are cool.

I have never linked this talk or the successive developments in 
this newsgroup because it being good stuff to know for every 
programmer, it's not much related to D and the not-interactive 
style of programming it asks for.

Bye,
bearophile
Nov 19 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/19/12 7:50 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


"Worth watching."


Andrei
Nov 19 2012
next sibling parent reply "renoX" <renozyx gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 20 November 2012 at 04:30:19 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 11/19/12 7:50 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn 
 cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


 "Worth watching."

 Andrei


Usually I dislike watching videos instead of slides, but this 
time I agree.
I think that this video is about giving instantaneous feedback to 
users and what they can gain from it: so slides aren't "good 
enough" here.

That said, when he plays with numeric values in the code, I can't 
help thinking: this is wrong there shouldn't be "magical" 
numerical value in the code as this is not maintainable/readable.

renoX
Nov 20 2012
parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:54:43 -0000, renoX <renozyx gmail.com> wrote:

 That said, when he plays with numeric values in the code, I can't help  
 thinking: this is wrong there shouldn't be "magical" numerical value in  
 the code as this is not maintainable/readable.


Agreed.  Imagine if the magical numbers were all defined with CONSTANT's  
as any good programmer would do.  In that case clicking one and dragging  
the slider would by default, change the value for all uses of CONSTANT.

Alternately, there could be a hot-key which defines a new CONSTANT with  
the new slider value for that single usage.

All doable with a sufficiently clever IDE.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 20 2012
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/19/2012 8:30 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 11/19/12 7:50 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


 "Worth watching."


Ok, I watched it.

I thought his principle was a great one, although it's pushing on a well-known 
idea that the faster the feedback cycle on a design, the more you can "play" 
with the design to optimize it.
Nov 20 2012
prev sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 00:50:42 -0000, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


Sorry, I really should have done that.  As bearophile says it's hard to  
summarise, but as Andrei mentioned it's well worth watching.

It is essentially about making it easier to "create" things.  Finding  
areas where the process of creating something is difficult and analysing  
why.  In most of the cases he shows the problem is a detachment between  
the method of creation and the result.

Like code for example, we write code but get no immediate feedback of our  
changes.  Instead we have to compile, <insert steps for  
copy/installing/etc the result>, then run the program to see the results.   
He shows an interactive IDE which displays the program output side by side  
with the code, in this case a game with a character that jumps about the  
place.  He can click on a variable and alter it's value with a slider and  
see immediate feedback.  There are also some neat tools for manipulating  
time allowing you to see the result of changes over time and tweak values  
to exactly those values you want/need.  (This example reminded me of the  
game Braid).

Another example is of defining a new algorithm.  In this example the IDE  
asks for example input values, and then it shows the variables of the  
algorithm at each stage as the programmer defines them.  It shows the  
values for each iteration of a loop, and allows the coder to test various  
input and actually "see" the results rather than having to imagine them  
all in their head.

Both of these are examples of where creation is hindered by the programmer  
having to visualise the result as they design - something all good  
developers can do well, sure, but why force ourselves to pretend to be a  
computer when we have a computer sitting in front of us which is  
infinitely better at it than we are?

How many times have we sat there and written the content of a string out  
on paper, labeled the indexes, drawn pointers to characters, etc in order  
to design an algorithm that deals with strings.  I still do this fairly  
frequently, even when I'm confident sure I've got it right, simply to  
verify my work and check for edge cases.

One further example shows him designing an animation in the conventional  
way using key frames and then again using a new system of touch based  
commands.  This example was born out of the frustration he experienced  
spending a whole day animating a leaf falling from a tree in a natural way  
(using key frames) - a task he accomplishes in less than 2 minutes as you  
watch using his new system.

A killer IDEA like those shown should be doable in D, for D.  We have a  
debugger (or code that can debug D) and the compile time speed of D is  
such that on-the-fly compile and display shouldn't be prohibitively slow.   
All it needs is someone motivated and perhaps easier/better linking  
between the required parts i.e. D front end, compiler, debugger, GUI  
toolkit..

Regan

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 20 2012
next sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:44:51 -0000, Regan Heath <regan netmail.co.nz>  
wrote:

 A killer IDEA ...


s/IDEA/IDE

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 20 2012
prev sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 20 November 2012 at 12:45:46 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 00:50:42 -0000, Walter Bright 
 <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 11/19/2012 6:26 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn 
 cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII


 Can you give us a summary or synopsis?


 Sorry, I really should have done that.  As bearophile says it's 
 hard to summarise, but as Andrei mentioned it's well worth 
 watching.

 It is essentially about making it easier to "create" things.  
 Finding areas where the process of creating something is 
 difficult and analysing why.  In most of the cases he shows the 
 problem is a detachment between the method of creation and the 
 result.

 Like code for example, we write code but get no immediate 
 feedback of our changes.  Instead we have to compile, <insert 
 steps for copy/installing/etc the result>, then run the program 
 to see the results.  He shows an interactive IDE which displays 
 the program output side by side with the code, in this case a 
 game with a character that jumps about the place.  He can click 
 on a variable and alter it's value with a slider and see 
 immediate feedback.  There are also some neat tools for 
 manipulating time allowing you to see the result of changes 
 over time and tweak values to exactly those values you 
 want/need.  (This example reminded me of the game Braid).

 Another example is of defining a new algorithm.  In this 
 example the IDE asks for example input values, and then it 
 shows the variables of the algorithm at each stage as the 
 programmer defines them.  It shows the values for each 
 iteration of a loop, and allows the coder to test various input 
 and actually "see" the results rather than having to imagine 
 them all in their head.

 Both of these are examples of where creation is hindered by the 
 programmer having to visualise the result as they design - 
 something all good developers can do well, sure, but why force 
 ourselves to pretend to be a computer when we have a computer 
 sitting in front of us which is infinitely better at it than we 
 are?

 How many times have we sat there and written the content of a 
 string out on paper, labeled the indexes, drawn pointers to 
 characters, etc in order to design an algorithm that deals with 
 strings.  I still do this fairly frequently, even when I'm 
 confident sure I've got it right, simply to verify my work and 
 check for edge cases.

 One further example shows him designing an animation in the 
 conventional way using key frames and then again using a new 
 system of touch based commands.  This example was born out of 
 the frustration he experienced spending a whole day animating a 
 leaf falling from a tree in a natural way (using key frames) - 
 a task he accomplishes in less than 2 minutes as you watch 
 using his new system.

 A killer IDEA like those shown should be doable in D, for D.  
 We have a debugger (or code that can debug D) and the compile 
 time speed of D is such that on-the-fly compile and display 
 shouldn't be prohibitively slow.  All it needs is someone 
 motivated and perhaps easier/better linking between the 
 required parts i.e. D front end, compiler, debugger, GUI 
 toolkit..

 Regan


The sad part is that many of these ideas were already available, 
to certain
extent, in the Smalltalk and Lisp environments.

Now, like with many other concepts, we are kind of rediscovering 
the principles.

--
Paulo
Nov 21 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 19 November 2012 at 14:27:51 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn 
 cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII

 R


Original on vimeo: http://vimeo.com/36579366
Nov 20 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:26:59 -0000
"Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:


 Hope no-one minds..
 
 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII
 
 R
 


That is really cool. It does wonder offtopic and get a little
pretentious near the end, but very interesting overall.

The game example is something that, more or less, exists already. It
has some downsides, but certainly a useful tool.

The animation example would definitely need some more precise abilities
added (such as timelines for all the movement/rotation/etc shown as
editable line graphs) since "performance" is a good thing but also
has drawbacks. But it definitely looks like a great tool to be added to
a more fully-fleshed animation toolbox. The multi-touch aspect is
gimmicky and doesn't add anything - and could even get in the user's
way. So I would design it so if you didn't want to hold the item button
on the left, you could just tap it to select it. But otherwise,
definitely some good stuff.

The non-game code example was definitely the most original and
eye-opening one, IMO. Also probably the hardest to implement, but
definitely something I'd like to see become common.
Dec 02 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
On Monday, 19 November 2012 at 14:27:51 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 Hope no-one minds..

 I stumbled across this video which I thought was pretty darn 
 cool:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII

 R


Yeah, this talk is quite famous.
Dec 02 2012
prev sibling parent "Tommi" <tommitissari hotmail.com> writes:
I found this article (Learnable Programming) by Bret Victor 
interesting:
Dec 03 2012