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digitalmars.D - Better forum

reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will not 
post as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to get the 
message or for it to be announced.

IMO there are much better forum software out there that would 
make it easier to communicate about D than the current method.

http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy to 
setup.

The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?QWxleCBSw7hubmUgUGV0ZXJzZW4=?= <alex lycus.org> writes:
On 05-12-2012 19:28, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will not post
 as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to get the message or
 for it to be announced.

 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would make it
 easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy to setup.

 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!


Most people here don't like these bulletin board forums because they 
don't get threading right at all.

-- 
Alex Rønne Petersen
alex lycus.org
http://lycus.org
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 18:28:04 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will 
 not post as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to 
 get the message or for it to be announced.

 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would 
 make it easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy 
 to setup.

 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!


I agree, it is very primitive compared to current standards, and 
the existing service is terrible in terms of it crashing all the 
time and breaking up threads, etc.

--rt
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 7:37 AM, Rob T wrote:

 I agree, it is very primitive compared to current standards, and the
 existing service is terrible in terms of it crashing all the time and
 breaking up threads, etc.


Crashing all the time? Will not post? I use this all day every day and 
do not see these issues.

Sometimes people who use the mailing list interface see thread breakage, 
and that is a problem.

If you want a more web-centric interface, use forum.dlang.org.

BTW, most "modern" forum software sux because:

1. No threaded view

2. No indication of which posts you have read and which you have not

3. 90% of the screen real estate is wasted with avatars, blank space, 
stupid signature blocks, cute graphics, window dressing, advertisements, 
etc., meaning you have to do lots of scrolling and in general making it 
hard on small screen users. Newsreaders give you just the beef, ma'am, 
and no chaff.

4. NNTP is very light on bandwidth, making it ideal when you're on the 
go using mifi, at a conference with a very slow connection, paying by 
the byte of data, etc.
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxleCBSw7hubmUgUGV0ZXJzZW4=?= <alex lycus.org> writes:
On 05-12-2012 21:37, Rob T wrote:

 On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 18:28:04 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will not post
 as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to get the message
 or for it to be announced.

 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would make it
 easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy to setup.

 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!


 I agree, it is very primitive compared to current standards, and the
 existing service is terrible in terms of it crashing all the time and
 breaking up threads, etc.

 --rt


The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not the server.

-- 
Alex Rønne Petersen
alex lycus.org
http://lycus.org
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex Rønne Petersen wrote:

 The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not the server.


That brings up another advantage of NNTP servers. It is very old 
technology, meaning the bugs have been worked out of it long ago. There 
is no constant issue of upgrading to the latest version to fix some 
obscure bugs, etc. Just turn it on and it works.

And, lastly, there's a wonderful effect of NNTP not being where the 
"cool guys" are. The spammers overlook us! Sure, we get a drive-by 
slamming from a spammer maybe once a month, but by and large NNTP flies 
under the radar these days.
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 09:14:54AM +1100, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex Rnne Petersen wrote:

The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not the
server.


 
 That brings up another advantage of NNTP servers. It is very old
 technology, meaning the bugs have been worked out of it long ago.
 There is no constant issue of upgrading to the latest version to fix
 some obscure bugs, etc. Just turn it on and it works.
 
 And, lastly, there's a wonderful effect of NNTP not being where the
 "cool guys" are. The spammers overlook us! Sure, we get a drive-by
 slamming from a spammer maybe once a month, but by and large NNTP
 flies under the radar these days.


Plus, NNTP being a public protocol rather than a specific implementation
of a specific forum software, people can use their own NNTP reader,
configured to their tastes, to read posts without having to subscribe to
Yet Another 101th forum with Yet Another Poorly-Chosen Login/Password.

<!Insert off-topic rant about how people seem to be obsessed with
specific software that require specific versions of a specific browser
rather than generic protocols that allow much better interoperability,
automation, scripting, search engine indexing, etc., etc.>


T

-- 
Too many people have open minds but closed eyes.
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling parent reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:14:57 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex Rønne Petersen wrote:

 The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not 
 the server.


 That brings up another advantage of NNTP servers. It is very 
 old technology, meaning the bugs have been worked out of it 
 long ago. There is no constant issue of upgrading to the latest 
 version to fix some obscure bugs, etc. Just turn it on and it 
 works.

 And, lastly, there's a wonderful effect of NNTP not being where 
 the "cool guys" are. The spammers overlook us! Sure, we get a 
 drive-by slamming from a spammer maybe once a month, but by and 
 large NNTP flies under the radar these days.


Hehe, it's cause no one uses it! if you check out most groups 
they are full of spam ;/ Only good spam filters can control it to 
any degree. With a BB, you require people to register which will 
stop 95% of spam. The other 5% could be fixed by asking more 
complex questions, stop posting of suspected spammers. Do not 
allow new users to post more than 1 post an hour. Allow certain 
people(not necessarily moderators) to kill spammers. Block IP's 
from registering more than once a month or so, etc...

There are many potential ways to reduce spam to near zero. Most 
BB's I've used have near zero spam without any complex spam 
protection mechanisms(as far as I know).

BB's have the ability to edit, delete, and move posts. Allow easy 
image insertion, private messaging, sticky threads, etc..

Also, the most popular BB's are pretty well tested because they 
are more widely used than nntp. So while it is true they are 
newer and more sophisticated they also are actively supported.

IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse to 
make the transition. I think they are just being hard headed 
though...
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 05.12.2012 23:40, schrieb js.mdnq:

 On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:14:57 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex Rønne Petersen wrote:


 ...

 IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse to make the
 transition. I think they are just being hard headed though...


I hate web forums with passion, they all suck compared to the browsing
experience most NNTP clients offer.

I can browse threads just with keyboard navigation, follow discussion 
threads, mark/unmark all I have read, save discussions for posterity,
all with a standards compliant network protocol free of walled garden
data servers.

As for spam, that is what moderation is for, if ever needed.

I am a firm believer that users of web forums can only find them better 
than Usenet, because they haven't experienced Usenet in its golden days.

--
Paulo
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 23:07:21 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Am 05.12.2012 23:40, schrieb js.mdnq:

 On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:14:57 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex Rønne Petersen wrote:


 ...

 IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse 
 to make the
 transition. I think they are just being hard headed though...


 I hate web forums with passion, they all suck compared to the 
 browsing
 experience most NNTP clients offer.

 I can browse threads just with keyboard navigation, follow 
 discussion threads, mark/unmark all I have read, save 
 discussions for posterity,
 all with a standards compliant network protocol free of walled 
 garden
 data servers.


Huh?  You can do the same thing with BB's? There is nothing you 
can do on NNTP that can't be done on BB's. Most BB's can be 
customized. If you want an app to view the BB how you want it 
then write one. Many BB's have RSS feeds, ability to 
edit(something you can't do with nntp, or at least most nntp 
servers), get reply by mail, mark all read/unread, save(also 
possibly not in the same format as you might be used to), etc...


 As for spam, that is what moderation is for, if ever needed.

 I am a firm believer that users of web forums can only find 
 them better than Usenet, because they haven't experienced 
 Usenet in its golden days.


I used to use usenet back in the day and after setting up a good 
spam filter it was ok. The only thing I find it better at BB's is 
navigation as it was quick to respond to threads. BUT this is not 
a feature that only nntp can dish out. There is nothing stopping 
any BB software from doing the same.

Most people that hate BB's simply do so because they are too in 
love with usenet. I mean, how can you hate having the ability to 
not edit posts or easily search the whole forum.

Usenet is dead, simple as that. Scan 95% of groups and they are 
full of nothing but spam. New users will not use them because of 
this alone.

The mentality of staying with usenet is no different than that of 
saying with win3.1. Just because you think it is better or want 
it to be better does not mean it is.

I understand status quo is a huge factor to overcome but all 
progress relies on doing so. How will D attract new users if it's 
method of communication is unfriendly?

It's much easier to customize a BB system rather than nntp. In 10 
years how many nntp servers will there be? Most ISP's already 
have stopped providing nntp. NNTP can't be upgraded because it is 
a distributed system and all servers must be upgraded(Which isn't 
going to happen).

I just came across this post from a "random" search:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/3069.html

Which wouldn't happen in a BB system.

Optimally both types of forums could be maintained. That way 
everyone can get a piece of pie. Time will tell which one is 
"better".


(my main point is that BB's can be easily customized to suit most 
peoples needs. If you want a nntp like client I'm sure it would 
not be difficult to create one as a mod to a BB. But sticking 
with nntp just guarantees that nothing will ever get 
better/change)
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 11:09 AM, js.mdnq wrote:

 Usenet is dead, simple as that. Scan 95% of groups and they are full of
 nothing but spam. New users will not use them because of this alone.


Take a look at this forum. No spam.



 It's much easier to customize a BB system rather than nntp. In 10 years
 how many nntp servers will there be? Most ISP's already have stopped
 providing nntp. NNTP can't be upgraded because it is a distributed
 system and all servers must be upgraded(Which isn't going to happen).


This forum is not part of usenet and does not rely on any nntp servers 
other than the one at digitalmars.com, which is fully under our control.



 (my main point is that BB's can be easily customized to suit most
 peoples needs. If you want a nntp like client I'm sure it would not be
 difficult to create one as a mod to a BB. But sticking with nntp just
 guarantees that nothing will ever get better/change)


This is incorrect, as the software that drives forum.dlang.org demonstrates.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


Well not exactly ...
http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com

I've used usenet myself, and I understand why you like it so 
much, however we have to be realists. Many ISP's have dropped 
usenet services completely, and most of the newer generation have 
no idea what a newsreader is. This is unfortunate, but that's the 
way it is. The custom web front end to usenet is clunky and looks 
primitive compared to what users expect to see these days, again 
that's just the way it is. That last thing you should be doing is 
isolating yourself from the new generation of programmers, those 
are the people who will make or break D.

Maybe a full featured modern BB can be used, with a mod to sync 
up with usenet?

--rt
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
 isolating yourself from the new generation of programmers, 
 those are the people who will make or break D.


I think I'm getting close to the edge here...

I don't think there has ever been a case in history where someone 
has decided not to use something because its forum didn't have an 
"Edit" button.

Way to over-dramatize.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 02:22:31 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 isolating yourself from the new generation of programmers, 
 those are the people who will make or break D.


 I think I'm getting close to the edge here...

 I don't think there has ever been a case in history where 
 someone has decided not to use something because its forum 
 didn't have an "Edit" button.

 Way to over-dramatize.


lol, who's being overly dramatic. Web based forums have much more 
than just an edit button than usenet.
Dec 05 2012
parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 02:30:07 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 02:22:31 UTC, Vladimir 
 Panteleev wrote:

 isolating yourself from the new generation of programmers, 
 those are the people who will make or break D.


 I think I'm getting close to the edge here...

 I don't think there has ever been a case in history where 
 someone has decided not to use something because its forum 
 didn't have an "Edit" button.

 Way to over-dramatize.


 lol, who's being overly dramatic. Web based forums have much 
 more than just an edit button than usenet.


Please enumerate all such features, and explain:

1. Why they are important to our community
2. How do they justify the drawbacks of splitting the community 
or forcing NNTP/mailing-list users to migrate
3. Why they can't be implemented in the existing web interface 
(or how that effort would not be justified compared to the above)
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 1:09 PM, Rob T wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


 Well not exactly ...
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com


Those posts do not appear if you're using an NNTP reader. It's not a 
fault with using NNTP.

Vladimir is working to do a better job syncing the forum.dlang.org with 
the NNTP database.
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply "timotheecour" <thelastmammoth gmail.com> writes:
enhancing forum features: 1click upvote, sorting, 1click 
duplicate etc (eg: userecho use case)
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply "timotheecour" <thelastmammoth gmail.com> writes:
[sorry, it sent before I finished editing].
I was just mentioning a related post from a couple months back:

http://forum.dlang.org/thread/kyzloucxyqsfshttbuxw forum.dlang.org#post-kyzloucxyqsfshttbuxw:40forum.dlang.org

[enhancing forum features: 1click upvote, sorting, 1click 
duplicate etc (eg: userecho use case)]

Basically, you're not alone wishing the forum was more modern (eg 
stackoverflow, quora.com etc)
Dec 05 2012
parent "Craig Dillabaugh" <cdillaba cg.scs.carleton.ca> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 04:46:34 UTC, timotheecour wrote:

 [sorry, it sent before I finished editing].
 I was just mentioning a related post from a couple months back:


Well, you should go back and edit your original post then :o)
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, December 06, 2012 05:41:53 timotheecour wrote:

 enhancing forum features: 1click upvote, sorting, 1click
 duplicate etc (eg: userecho use case)


What's the voting supposed to do? What are you voting on? Whatever it is, it 
can't have any effect beyond those who use the web interface, so unless it's 
specifically something that only affects you account, I don't see how it could 
really work.

- Jonathan M Davis
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 4:47 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 What's the voting supposed to do? What are you voting on? Whatever it is, it
 can't have any effect beyond those who use the web interface, so unless it's
 specifically something that only affects you account, I don't see how it could
 really work.


Also, voting systems are easily manipulated and abused. Fixing that 
requires, well, a larger investment in thinking about it, human 
moderation, etc.

Doesn't seem worth it, to me.

I wouldn't underestimate the ongoing effort forums like reddit and 
hackernews put into voting systems.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 05:11:59PM +1100, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 4:47 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

What's the voting supposed to do? What are you voting on? Whatever it
is, it can't have any effect beyond those who use the web interface,
so unless it's specifically something that only affects you account,
I don't see how it could really work.


 
 Also, voting systems are easily manipulated and abused. Fixing that
 requires, well, a larger investment in thinking about it, human
 moderation, etc.
 
 Doesn't seem worth it, to me.
 
 I wouldn't underestimate the ongoing effort forums like reddit and
 hackernews put into voting systems.


Voting is one of those things that everybody thinks is a good idea.
Until it's put into practice, then you realize it needs further
refinement. Which adds yet another layer of adjustments, and then you
realize that *that* also has its shortcomings, and needs yet another
layer of adjustments, ad nauseaum.

But nobody ever takes a step back and wonder, why do we even *need* a
voting system? What does it mean for a forum post to be rated X, for
some value of X? I mean, this isn't a popularity contest here. We're
trying to have a technical discussion. It should be the technical merit
of a post that establishes its value, not some arbitrary integer that
got randomly assigned to it. And frankly, when you're browsing the
archive for past discussions on a specific topic, do you even care how
many votes it had? What you care for is the meat: the technical points
raised in the post itself. The number attached to it holds no meaning
whatsoever.


T

-- 
The early bird gets the worm. Moral: ewww...
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "deed" <none none.none> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 07:37:29 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 05:11:59PM +1100, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 4:47 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

What's the voting supposed to do? What are you voting on? 
Whatever it
is, it can't have any effect beyond those who use the web 
interface,
so unless it's specifically something that only affects you 
account,
I don't see how it could really work.


 
 Also, voting systems are easily manipulated and abused. Fixing 
 that
 requires, well, a larger investment in thinking about it, human
 moderation, etc.
 
 Doesn't seem worth it, to me.
 
 I wouldn't underestimate the ongoing effort forums like reddit 
 and
 hackernews put into voting systems.


 Voting is one of those things that everybody thinks is a good 
 idea.
 Until it's put into practice, then you realize it needs further
 refinement. Which adds yet another layer of adjustments, and 
 then you
 realize that *that* also has its shortcomings, and needs yet 
 another
 layer of adjustments, ad nauseaum.

 But nobody ever takes a step back and wonder, why do we even 
 *need* a
 voting system? What does it mean for a forum post to be rated 
 X, for
 some value of X? I mean, this isn't a popularity contest here. 
 We're
 trying to have a technical discussion. It should be the 
 technical merit
 of a post that establishes its value, not some arbitrary 
 integer that
 got randomly assigned to it. And frankly, when you're browsing 
 the
 archive for past discussions on a specific topic, do you even 
 care how
 many votes it had? What you care for is the meat: the technical 
 points
 raised in the post itself. The number attached to it holds no 
 meaning
 whatsoever.


 T


If all posts at D Learn could have been tagged by subject and 
easily looked up in a structured subject tree, as in the language 
reference, I belive it could complement the documentation in a 
useful manner.
Dec 06 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/7/2012 5:01 AM, deed wrote:

 If all posts at D Learn could have been tagged by subject and easily
 looked up in a structured subject tree, as in the language reference, I
 belive it could complement the documentation in a useful manner.


There is immense value in these ng postings, but absent a human curator 
for it, the best that can be done is use google to search them.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply "deed" <none none.none> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 20:37:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/7/2012 5:01 AM, deed wrote:

 If all posts at D Learn could have been tagged by subject and 
 easily
 looked up in a structured subject tree, as in the language 
 reference, I
 belive it could complement the documentation in a useful 
 manner.


 There is immense value in these ng postings, but absent a human 
 curator for it, the best that can be done is use google to 
 search them.


Someone would have to set up the subject structure under D.Learn. 
Then a possibly required input field (thinking web interface) 
could specify the subject the question belongs to. A voting 
system would then sort the responses after relevance and 
usefulness. It would help building useful, easy accessible and 
comprehensive documentation.

Also, language and library debates could be tagged by subject and 
the posts could be rated by votes in order to organize and 
extract key points out of long threads.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2012 04:16 PM, deed wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 20:37:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/7/2012 5:01 AM, deed wrote:

 If all posts at D Learn could have been tagged by subject and easily
 looked up in a structured subject tree, as in the language reference, I
 belive it could complement the documentation in a useful manner.


 There is immense value in these ng postings, but absent a human
 curator for it, the best that can be done is use google to search them.


 Someone would have to set up the subject structure under D.Learn. Then a
 possibly required input field (thinking web interface) could specify the
 subject the question belongs to. A voting system would then sort the
 responses after relevance and usefulness. It would help building useful,
 easy accessible and comprehensive documentation.

 Also, language and library debates could be tagged by subject and the
 posts could be rated by votes in order to organize and extract key
 points out of long threads.


....So basically Stack Exchange.

Why not simply point people to stackoverflow tag [d]?

The infrastructure is already in place for pretty much exactly what you 
are talking about, and several of the people here have accounts there.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply "deed" <none none.none> writes:
 Someone would have to set up the subject structure under 
 D.Learn. Then a
 possibly required input field (thinking web interface) could 
 specify the
 subject the question belongs to. A voting system would then 
 sort the
 responses after relevance and usefulness. It would help 
 building useful,
 easy accessible and comprehensive documentation.

 Also, language and library debates could be tagged by subject 
 and the
 posts could be rated by votes in order to organize and extract 
 key
 points out of long threads.


 ....So basically Stack Exchange.

 Why not simply point people to stackoverflow tag [d]?


Since this is the D site and lots of useful information is 
exchanged here and expected to be found here.


 The infrastructure is already in place for pretty much exactly 
 what you are talking about, and several of the people here have 
 accounts there.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2012 04:43 PM, deed wrote:

 Someone would have to set up the subject structure under D.Learn. Then a
 possibly required input field (thinking web interface) could specify the
 subject the question belongs to. A voting system would then sort the
 responses after relevance and usefulness. It would help building useful,
 easy accessible and comprehensive documentation.

 Also, language and library debates could be tagged by subject and the
 posts could be rated by votes in order to organize and extract key
 points out of long threads.


 ....So basically Stack Exchange.

 Why not simply point people to stackoverflow tag [d]?


 Since this is the D site and lots of useful information is exchanged
 here and expected to be found here.


This is the internet.  There is no functional difference between having 
forums.dlang.org redirect to Stack Exchange. (aside from legality, of 
course.) "Here" and "there" are directional concepts that do not 
translate well.

If there is a link on dlang.org that points to stackexchange.com/d (or 
whatever format they use) then "there" is suddenly "here".

This feels very NIH-ish.

 The infrastructure is already in place for pretty much exactly what
 you are talking about, and several of the people here have accounts
 there.
Dec 06 2012
parent "deed" <none none.none> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 22:59:04 UTC, 1100110 wrote:

 On 12/06/2012 04:43 PM, deed wrote:

 Someone would have to set up the subject structure under 
 D.Learn. Then a
 possibly required input field (thinking web interface) could 
 specify the
 subject the question belongs to. A voting system would then 
 sort the
 responses after relevance and usefulness. It would help 
 building useful,
 easy accessible and comprehensive documentation.

 Also, language and library debates could be tagged by 
 subject and the
 posts could be rated by votes in order to organize and 
 extract key
 points out of long threads.


 ....So basically Stack Exchange.

 Why not simply point people to stackoverflow tag [d]?


 Since this is the D site and lots of useful information is 
 exchanged
 here and expected to be found here.


 This is the internet.  There is no functional difference 
 between having forums.dlang.org redirect to Stack Exchange. 
 (aside from legality, of course.) "Here" and "there" are 
 directional concepts that do not translate well.

 If there is a link on dlang.org that points to 
 stackexchange.com/d (or whatever format they use) then "there" 
 is suddenly "here".

 This feels very NIH-ish.

 The infrastructure is already in place for pretty much 
 exactly what
 you are talking about, and several of the people here have 
 accounts
 there.






My point is not how this is implemented, just that it could be 
useful to enable sorting of the posts, mainly with D.Learn in 
mind.
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On 2012-12-06, 19:01, deed wrote:


 If all posts at D Learn could have been tagged by subject and easily  
 looked up in a structured subject tree, as in the language reference, I  
 belive it could complement the documentation in a useful manner.


One possibility I see here is for documentation to include links to
relevant forum posts, chosen by simple search. If you want to be fancy,
this is where voting fits in.

-- 
Simen
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 21:47:25 -0800
Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, December 06, 2012 05:41:53 timotheecour wrote:

 enhancing forum features: 1click upvote, sorting, 1click
 duplicate etc (eg: userecho use case)


 
 What's the voting supposed to do? What are you voting on? Whatever it
 is, it can't have any effect beyond those who use the web interface,
 so unless it's specifically something that only affects you account,
 I don't see how it could really work.
 


It sounds pointless, and it mostly is, but what it *is* useful for is
a community-moderated way to help separate out, and discourage,
the useless troll posts. (And also help the *really* good ones stand
out, which also provides good feedback from the author: Are there no
replies because everyone agrees and has nothing to add, or is
indifferent or didn't read it?)

If my *ahem* "not-a-blog" site was getting a lot of comment traffic, I
would probably add in a comment voting feature so that it could
self-moderate better without sucking up too much of my time, without
generating as many flames[1], and I wouldn't need to so carefully
balance post-deletion with overuse-of-power.

[1] Why be tempted to flame a troll when he's just getting downvoted
and greyed-out anyway? A greyed-out troll is easier to ignore.
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/05/2012 09:38 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 1:09 PM, Rob T wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


 Well not exactly ...
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com


 Those posts do not appear if you're using an NNTP reader. It's not a
 fault with using NNTP.



Not true.  They do appear on NNTP as well.

As well as the thread breakage any many of the other complaints.

It appears we have this discussion about once per year.
Please stop acting like NNTP is the godsend you act like it is.

It is nice, but it guarantees very little of what you claim it does.

And with that, I'm not having this discussion again.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/7/2012 6:20 AM, 1100110 wrote:

 On 12/05/2012 09:38 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 1:09 PM, Rob T wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


 Well not exactly ...
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com


 Those posts do not appear if you're using an NNTP reader. It's not a
 fault with using NNTP.



 Not true.  They do appear on NNTP as well.


Direct your newsreader at them. They won't be there. They don't exist on 
the NNTP server, because I removed them.



 As well as the thread breakage


That's the fault of the mailman software, not NNTP.
Dec 06 2012
parent 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2012 02:41 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/7/2012 6:20 AM, 1100110 wrote:

 On 12/05/2012 09:38 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 1:09 PM, Rob T wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


 Well not exactly ...
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com


 Those posts do not appear if you're using an NNTP reader. It's not a
 fault with using NNTP.



 Not true. They do appear on NNTP as well.


 Direct your newsreader at them. They won't be there. They don't exist on
 the NNTP server, because I removed them.


Ok, so they *did* appear on the NNTP server at one point in time.
I remember seeing the one entitled "Rape is Rape" in my newsreader.

Which means my statement is correct.  Once posted, they appear.

Whether or nor you or someone else removes them is irrelevant.
That is just marking spam as spam, no different than a BBS, or email for 
that matter.

We'd have the exact same problem with any other methods of 
communication(Except for the system in place to deal with it.).  NNTP 
seems to be snake oil.

(Don't take my original post as antagonistic, much more of a 
Hands-in-the-air I want no part of any argument.)

 As well as the thread breakage


 That's the fault of the mailman software, not NNTP.


I understand. That should be fixed, but until it is it affects *all* 
methods of viewing the forums, does it not?
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 14:38:39 +1100
Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 12/6/2012 1:09 PM, Rob T wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:33:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Take a look at this forum. No spam.


 Well not exactly ...
 http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k8afao$b29$2 digitalmars.com


 
 Those posts do not appear if you're using an NNTP reader. It's not a 
 fault with using NNTP.
 


In Claws-mail, they didn't disappear from my client when you deleted
them from the server. But that's the fault of Claws-mail being a piece
of shit. Even the much-hated Outlook Express on XP actually obeyed the
deletion properly. This Claws-mail crashes when you paste/undo/redo.


 Vladimir is working to do a better job syncing the forum.dlang.org
 with the NNTP database.
 


Great! :)
Dec 06 2012
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/7/2012 6:49 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 In Claws-mail, they didn't disappear from my client when you deleted
 them from the server. But that's the fault of Claws-mail being a piece
 of shit. Even the much-hated Outlook Express on XP actually obeyed the
 deletion properly. This Claws-mail crashes when you paste/undo/redo.


They don't appear in the archives pages, either, because I do an rsync 
on the NNTP database before generating the pages.

With Thunderbird's newsreader, even if you already downloaded and read 
those troll posts, after a while TB will remove your local copy as well.

There's been so little interest in our forum by spammers and trolls that 
manually dealing with the occasional one has been of little significance.
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 03:09:34 +0100
"Rob T" <rob ucora.com> wrote:

 Many ISP's have dropped usenet services completely,


Doesn't matter since we use a dedicated server and therefore aren't
hindered by ISP bullshit.

Also: http://www.eternal-september.org/


 and most of the newer generation have 
 no idea what a newsreader is. This is unfortunate, but that's the 
 way it is.


I really think that's irrelevant since most of the younger *and*
baby-boomer generations have absolutely no idea what a *web browser*
is, and yet they still fumble around with them all the time.

Plus, we're not "most", we're programmers. Plus we do have a web
interface anyway (and it even supports those avatars that all the kids
seem to require these days ;) ).
Dec 06 2012
next sibling parent reply "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:43:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
wrote:

 "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> wrote:

 Many ISP's have dropped usenet services completely,


 Doesn't matter since we use a dedicated server


If memory serves, I need an address to the dedicated server, and 
I need to know where in the hierarchy this newsgroups sits.

Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I didn't 
see them.


 Also: http://www.eternal-september.org/


I searched for "programming", "dlang" and a few other terms, but 
no luck finding this newsgroup.

At this point, I'm still stuck with the web interface.

--rt
Dec 06 2012
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/7/2012 6:21 PM, Rob T wrote:

 Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I didn't see them.


http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html
Dec 07 2012
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, December 07, 2012 21:59:56 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/7/2012 6:21 PM, Rob T wrote:

 Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I didn't see them.


 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html


We might to want to do something at dlang.org or forum.dlang.org to make it 
clear that there are multiple ways to access the newsgroups. We get threads 
like this in part because new people find forum.dlang.org and have no idea that 
the other interfaces ever exist or that we use nntp on the backend. It's also 
unlikely that very many people are going to stumble on the page that you 
linked at this point, because most of them will probably just be visiting 
dlang.org rather than digitalmars.org, so only those who have been around 
longer or who find out about it from discussions like this are going to know 
about the other interfaces or how to access them.

- Jonathan M Davis
Dec 07 2012
next sibling parent reply "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Friday, 7 December 2012 at 16:19:39 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

 We might to want to do something at dlang.org or 
 forum.dlang.org to make it
 clear that there are multiple ways to access the newsgroups.


An »Also via« column was recently added to the group list on 
forum.dlang.org.

David
Dec 07 2012
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, December 07, 2012 17:22:19 David Nadlinger wrote:

 On Friday, 7 December 2012 at 16:19:39 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
=20
 wrote:

 We might to want to do something at dlang.org or
 forum.dlang.org to make it
 clear that there are multiple ways to access the newsgroups.


=20
 An =C2=BBAlso via=C2=AB column was recently added to the group list o=


n

 forum.dlang.org.


So, it was. I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

- Jonathan M Davis
Dec 07 2012
prev sibling parent "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> writes:
On Friday, 7 December 2012 at 16:19:39 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

 On Friday, December 07, 2012 21:59:56 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/7/2012 6:21 PM, Rob T wrote:

 Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I 
 didn't see them.


 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html


 We might to want to do something at dlang.org or 
 forum.dlang.org to make it
 clear that there are multiple ways to access the newsgroups. We 
 get threads
 like this in part because new people find forum.dlang.org and 
 have no idea that
 the other interfaces ever exist or that we use nntp on the 
 backend. It's also
 unlikely that very many people are going to stumble on the page 
 that you
 linked at this point, because most of them will probably just 
 be visiting
 dlang.org rather than digitalmars.org, so only those who have 
 been around
 longer or who find out about it from discussions like this are 
 going to know
 about the other interfaces or how to access them.

 - Jonathan M Davis


Agreed, that's exactly what has happened to me. Dlang.org seemed 
to be the main place to be with no reason to look elsewhere, and 
I thought for a long time that the forum.dlang.org was supposed 
to be a typical web forum, and not an nntp web interface.

I'd like to thank everyone for the detailed replies on how to 
connect with a newsreader.

I'll part this subject line with a suggestion that you listen 
carefully to what new people are complaining about, often it's 
just reality from what outsiders are seeing, and it cannot hurt 
to try and make things look better and work better to accommodate 
that perspective.

To the guys who have been here forever, it is easy to forget that 
new people do not know what you already know, and when looking in 
from a different perspective and set of experiences, they will 
often see things far differently than what you may be seeing. 
They may also get frustrated and speak out in the wrong way at 
times.

Of course I do realize this whole effort is run by volunteers, so 
when I try and inform you about something that I don't think is 
right, it's only because I like what I see and want to see it get 
better, if I did not care I would not be posting at all. The 
other guys who are complaining about stuff are probably the same 
as me, they care enough to point it out.

People complaining is actually a good nuisance to have.

Thanks for the effort you guys are putting into D!

--rt
Dec 07 2012
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:21:06 +0100
"Rob T" <rob ucora.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:43:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
 wrote:

 "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> wrote:

 Many ISP's have dropped usenet services completely,


 Doesn't matter since we use a dedicated server


 
 If memory serves, I need an address to the dedicated server,


news.digitalmars.com

DNS will automatically find the actual IP address. So it's really
very, very simple: Just create a new NNTP account in your favorite
NNTP client, set the server to "news.digitalmars.com", and that's it:
you should be good. That's all anyone needs to worry about.


 and 
 I need to know where in the hierarchy this newsgroups sits.
 


You don't really need to know that, but here's the answer FWIW:

It sits as the single, only node in a completely separate "hierarchy".

FWIW, vibe.d's NG server works the same way, AIUI.


 Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I didn't 
 see them.
 


See Walter's reply.


 Also: http://www.eternal-september.org/


 
 I searched for "programming", "dlang" and a few other terms, but 
 no luck finding this newsgroup.
 
 At this point, I'm still stuck with the web interface.
 


Sorry, I wasn't clear about that: When I mentioned
eternal-september.org I wasn't talking about D's NG, I was only talking
about the other "typical" Usenet channels (or whatever they're called).

Ie, if you want to use some "normal" NG like "comp.lang.c++" or
"alt.whatever", and your ISP doesn't provide a Usenet server (or you
don't know/care what your ISPs Usenet server is), then you can just use
eternal-september.org (one you register an account there).

BUT, since D's NG exists completely *outside* the standard Usenet, it's
not available at eternal-september.org (Fortunately though, it
doesn't need to be there since you can always just connect directly to
news.digitalmars.com regardless of your ISP).

I only mentioned eternal-september.org as a response to "Many ISP's
have dropped usenet services completely". I didn't mean it as having
anything to do with D's NG.
Dec 07 2012
parent 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/07/2012 11:29 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:21:06 +0100
 "Rob T"<rob ucora.com>  wrote:


 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:43:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky
 wrote:

 "Rob T"<rob ucora.com>  wrote:

 Many ISP's have dropped usenet services completely,


 Doesn't matter since we use a dedicated server


 If memory serves, I need an address to the dedicated server,


 news.digitalmars.com


simply digitalmars.com works on Opera and ThunderBird.

I don't know if that was on purpose, or just a happy side-effect.
Dec 08 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:43:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
wrote:

 "Rob T" <rob ucora.com> wrote:

 Many ISP's have dropped usenet services completely,


 Doesn't matter since we use a dedicated server


If memory serves, I need an address to the dedicated server, and 
I need to know where in the hierarchy this newsgroups sits.

Maybe there are instructions buried away somewhere, but I didn't 
see them.


 Also: http://www.eternal-september.org/


I searched for "programming", "dlang" and a few other terms, but 
no luck finding this newsgroup.

At this point, I'm still stuck with the web interface, and I'm 
having trouble reading and posting again.

Just got one of these ...

Proxy Error

The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream 
server.
The proxy server could not handle the request GET 
/thread/jkwrcdrrwbbxmazoqhkk forum.dlang.org.

Reason: Error reading from remote server

Apache Server at forum.dlang.org Port 80

--rt
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 02:43:15PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
[...]

 Also: http://www.eternal-september.org/


[...]

That name cracks me up. :)

Ironically enough, that was the very September that I started my first
year in college, which also meant the first time I was exposed to a Unix
system and the early Internet. Yet I identify myself more with the
old-timers before my time than with my apparent contemporaries when it
comes to netiquette, etc..


T

-- 
It is of the new things that men tire --- of fashions and proposals and
improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and
intoxicate. It is the old things that are young. -- G.K. Chesterton
Dec 07 2012
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 01:09:00 +0100
"js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> wrote:

 
 Usenet is dead, simple as that.


I find it hilarious that you've posted that in a big discussion on a
heavily-used NNTP server :)


 The mentality of staying with usenet is no different than that of 
 saying with win3.1. Just because you think it is better or want 
 it to be better does not mean it is.


Just because you think or want web-BBs or Win8 to be better doesn't
mean it is.


 
 I understand status quo is a huge factor to overcome but all 
 progress relies on doing so. How will D attract new users if it's 
 method of communication is unfriendly?
 


We already have a web-interface, even with avatars and multiple
views, fast page loading and whatnot. So lacking a few minor bells
and whistles is a FAR cry from actually being the unfriendly
new-user-averting blunder you're trying to make it out to be.



 It's much easier to customize a BB system rather than nntp. In 10 
 years how many nntp servers will there be?


How many facebook servers are there? And I don't mean internally, I
mean "From the perspective of the rest of the internet". Basically
just one. And yet that doesn't stop hordes of people from using it.


 Most ISP's already 
 have stopped providing nntp. NNTP can't be upgraded because it is 
 a distributed system and all servers must be upgraded(Which isn't 
 going to happen).


All those points are irrelevent here because this isn't a typical
distributed-NNTP channel. We *have* a central, public server that
anyone from ANY isp can use. We can upgrade it without worrying about
the rest of the world's NNTP servers. And ISPs aren't providing this,
digitalmars is, so ISPs cannot stop providing D NG access since
they're not the ones providing it in the first place.


 
 I just came across this post from a "random" search:
 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/3069.html
 
 Which wouldn't happen in a BB system.
 


'Course it would. Most BB systems have the admins determine what
"sections" exist, not the ordinary users.



 Optimally both types of forums could be maintained. That way 
 everyone can get a piece of pie.


First of all, we already have both. Second of all, if we had both in
they way you're suggesting, then we would be splitting the community.
That's a very bad thing. (And we've caught a *lot* of flack for
splitting the community before, what with Phobos/Tango and
D1/D2, so we're DEFINITELY not going to do it again.)


 
 (my main point is that BB's can be easily customized to suit most 
 peoples needs.


So can an NNTP frontend. But an NNTP frontend can do it better because
NNTP is a standard protocol. With BBs you have to customize it for every
damn BB system out there.


 If you want a nntp like client I'm sure it would 
 not be difficult to create one as a mod to a BB.


Uhh, we've *already* done it the other way around. If you want a
BB-like client, it's *already* made and out there. And we're not going
to flip it around just because one person wants us to and tries to
berate us for being un-hip and for not hopping onto the newer==better
bandwagon.

Besides, if you want "that's old" to succeed as an argument for
abandoning something, you should be posting in a french clothing
designers forum, not a programmer one.


 But sticking 
 with nntp just guarantees that nothing will ever get 
 better/change)
 


I don't want it constantly changing for the sake of change. And I
strongly dispute the claim that BBs are better. I liked them a lot
*until* I discovered newsgroups.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply "DypthroposTheImposter" <mcbracket gmail.com> writes:
  It isn't the worst nor the best,

I see many times where a thread gets split up -- eww
can't edit anything -- eww
At least I can view it as a forum not a mailing list - happy
Dec 06 2012
parent reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:39:07 UTC, 
DypthroposTheImposter wrote:

  It isn't the worst nor the best,

 I see many times where a thread gets split up -- eww
 can't edit anything -- eww
 At least I can view it as a forum not a mailing list - happy




Why can's a BBS be modified to integrate with the current forum?

After all, nntp and BBS's are basically databases with user 
interfaces. (nntp through it's protocol and BBS's through web 
browsers)

It seems that if D's forum works and is able to interface between 
web based nd nntp then it wouldn't be hard to integrate or modify 
a BBS to work with nntp. This way we get the best of both 
worlds(or everyone can be happy).

To me, this is the best option and it shouldn't be difficult to 
do.

e.g.,

When a person posts on the BB the message is sent to the nntp 
server just as it is done here. Should be very simple as the 
current forum already implements the code. (possibly just need to 
massage the data a little)

When a response is made from nntp then it must be determined 
where it fits. This is probably the difficult part but probably 
be pretty easy.
Dec 06 2012
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/7/2012 6:49 AM, js.mdnq wrote:

 This is probably the difficult part but probably be pretty easy.


And I live for the easy difficult parts!
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:49:47 +0100
"js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 19:39:07 UTC, 
 DypthroposTheImposter wrote:

  It isn't the worst nor the best,

 I see many times where a thread gets split up -- eww
 can't edit anything -- eww
 At least I can view it as a forum not a mailing list - happy


 
 
 
 Why can's a BBS be modified to integrate with the current forum?
 
 After all, nntp and BBS's are basically databases with user 
 interfaces. (nntp through it's protocol and BBS's through web 
 browsers)
 
 It seems that if D's forum works and is able to interface between 
 web based nd nntp then it wouldn't be hard to integrate or modify 
 a BBS to work with nntp. This way we get the best of both 
 worlds(or everyone can be happy).
 
 To me, this is the best option and it shouldn't be difficult to 
 do.
 


??? We *already* have both NNTP and BB interfaces accessing the
same common (NNTP) datastore. Why are you so insistent that the BB
needs to be the datastore?
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent reply "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On 2012-12-06, 20:49, js.mdnq wrote:


 Why can's a BBS be modified to integrate with the current forum?

 After all, nntp and BBS's are basically databases with user interfaces.  
 (nntp through it's protocol and BBS's through web browsers)

 It seems that if D's forum works and is able to interface between web  
 based nd nntp then it wouldn't be hard to integrate or modify a BBS to  
 work with nntp. This way we get the best of both worlds(or everyone can  
 be happy).

 To me, this is the best option and it shouldn't be difficult to do.


So basically your argument boils down to "I lubs myBB, Y U no use it?"?
Are you perhaps working for them? If so, you've chosen your audience
poorly.


You are here describing what we already have. We have a web based forum
on an NNTP backend - just as you descibe. The only difference is it is
not your favorite forum software. Boo friggin' hoo.

As long as NNTP is the backend, there will be no editing of posts,
regardless of what you put on top of it (unless of course you think
giving different users different data is OK). Even if this were
possible, it seems most users here think it's a bad idea anyway.

As long as email exists, there will be no private messaging (hint:
'cause it's the same fecking thing).

Inserting images... You can do that already. It's called attachments.

Formatting of text... If ever I meet the person who decided HTML in
email was a good idea, I'll make sure he will stay away from computers
until long after he's dead.

Customization we have. Use whatever newsreader you want, or a blazing
fast forum if you only know how to use a browser. Bloating the forum
with customization options would be possible, but I don't see how
that would be a good thing. If you really need to, use a custom css
for it.

Votes are useless for a discussion forum. Votes may be good for a
what's hot-type of site (which this is not), and for answers to
questions where there is no clear-cut 'best' answer.

-- 
Simen
Dec 06 2012
parent reply 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2012 03:29 PM, Simen Kjaeraas wrote:

 Formatting of text... If ever I meet the person who decided HTML in
 email was a good idea, I'll make sure he will stay away from computers
 until long after he's dead.


If *I* ever meet him I'll send him your way.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 16:06:22 -0600
1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> wrote:


 On 12/06/2012 03:29 PM, Simen Kjaeraas wrote:

 Formatting of text... If ever I meet the person who decided HTML in
 email was a good idea, I'll make sure he will stay away from
 computers until long after he's dead.


 
 If *I* ever meet him I'll send him your way.


http://www.jwz.org/about.html

Check the "1995" entry on that page.
Dec 06 2012
parent "Simen Kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On 2012-43-07 03:12, Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com>  
wrote:


 On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 16:06:22 -0600
 1100110 <0b1100110 gmail.com> wrote:


 On 12/06/2012 03:29 PM, Simen Kjaeraas wrote:

 Formatting of text... If ever I meet the person who decided HTML in
 email was a good idea, I'll make sure he will stay away from
 computers until long after he's dead.


 If *I* ever meet him I'll send him your way.


 http://www.jwz.org/about.html

 Check the "1995" entry on that page.


At least he seems to regret it.

-- 
Simen
Dec 07 2012
prev sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 12:07:31AM +0100, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Am 05.12.2012 23:40, schrieb js.mdnq:


[...]

IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse to make
the transition. I think they are just being hard headed though...


 
 I hate web forums with passion, they all suck compared to the browsing
 experience most NNTP clients offer.
 
 I can browse threads just with keyboard navigation, follow discussion
 threads, mark/unmark all I have read, save discussions for posterity,
 all with a standards compliant network protocol free of walled garden
 data servers.


Finally, a voice of reason!



 As for spam, that is what moderation is for, if ever needed.
 
 I am a firm believer that users of web forums can only find them
 better than Usenet, because they haven't experienced Usenet in its
 golden days.


[...]

Yeah, what is left of Usenet these days is not even a faint shadow of
what it was back in the day, nor a representative indicator of the
soundness of its paradigm. 

I alluded to protocol over application earlier, and perhaps it's worth
belaboring the point. The reason the Internet even exists today is
because somebody had the sense to realize that relying on a specific
software application simply will not cut it. It's not scalable, not
interoperable, and not practical on any non-trivial scale. Instead of
forcing everything and everyone to conform to a single software
application and a single way of doing things, a set of powerful generic
protocols were designed. By standardizing on the protocol rather than
the software, an entire field was opened up: it doesn't matter what OS
or software you're using and what OS or software I'm using, as long as
they speak the same protocol, they're automatically compatible. You can
have a hundred completely different OSes, twelve hundred completely
different software applications all by different vendors, but by virtue
of their speaking the same protocol, they can interoperate. And they
will continue to interoperate with *future* OSes and software that
haven't even been dreamed of yet, as long as the same protocol continues
to be used.

Had the designers of the internet back in its embryonic stages decided
to standardize instead on a specific set of software programs from a
single vendor that can only communicate amongst themselves, the internet
wouldn't even *exist* today. Version incompatibilities, program bugs
that become depended on (and therefore unfixable), non-interoperability
with anything but software developed by that one vendor, etc., would
have killed off the internet years before it became the internet.

All web forums assume (1) you're using a browser, (2) your browser is
GUI-based, (3) your browser is configured with certain minimal features
like Javascript, cookies, etc.. There is (1) no way to use anything
*other* than a browser (and a *graphical* one to boot -- it's so painful
to use with a text browser you might as well be talking HTTP with a
magnet, a pair of tweezers, and a really steady hand holding a cat5
cable) to use the forum, even though forums themselves have no inherent
need for the bloated monstrosities that today's browsers have mutated
into, (2) no way to access the forum data directly -- it's walled behind
the guises of a graphical UI-centric paged interface designed for GUI
users' consumption, and therefore inconvenient or just plain impossible
for programs to work with directly, which results in (3) you *have* to
use that interface to access that data, and if that interface is hard to
use or buggy, well, life just sucks, deal with it.  IOW, (4) you cannot
easily archive posts, sort them by thread, navigate them
programmatically, back them up en masse in your personal archives.  To
make things worse, (5) the single UI that you have no choice over
usually has a totally dainbramaged search function that doesn't even
hold a candle to a full-powered regex search engine that a text-based
NNTP client is capable of. Not to mention bandwidth-wasting with
nonsense like logo graphics and other needless eye-candy, which is
totally worthless when what you want is *information*. HTML, especially
the kind used in web forums, is dismally low in signal-to-noise ratio.
Most of it consumed with visual tags and presentation (and most of the
rest of it with baroque boilerplates mandated by W3C that are just
copy-n-pasted everywhere anyway) which are totally useless when what you
really care about is the *meat*: the text of the forum posts.

With NNTP, you can (1) use a text-based client, like I do, and be able
to navigate 5000-post threads with ease, WITHOUT needing to touch the
rodent; (2) use the web interface on dlang.org, which some really smart
people have put together in a very usable way for those who prefer GUIs;
(3) use an automatic archiver; (4) run your own NNTP backup server; (5)
telnet to port 119 and talk to the server directly ;-); and (6) any or
all of the above as you please.

It's the protocols that matter. It's the protocols that build
infrastructure. Walled-garden web forums are just an anachronism to the
pre-internet days of gratuitous system incompatibilities, inability of
interoperating, and pointless turf wars over which program is "better"
(hint: they *all* suck). Just ask Nick about github sometime. :-P :-P

I'll shut up now.


T

-- 
Век живи - век учись. А дураком помрёшь.
Dec 05 2012
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:41:35 -0800
"H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:

 
 I alluded to protocol over application earlier, and perhaps it's worth
 belaboring the point. The reason the Internet even exists today is
 because somebody had the sense to realize that relying on a specific
 software application simply will not cut it. It's not scalable, not
 interoperable, and not practical on any non-trivial scale. Instead of
 forcing everything and everyone to conform to a single software
 application and a single way of doing things, a set of powerful
 generic protocols were designed. By standardizing on the protocol
 rather than the software, an entire field was opened up: it doesn't
 matter what OS or software you're using and what OS or software I'm
 using, as long as they speak the same protocol, they're automatically
 compatible. You can have a hundred completely different OSes, twelve
 hundred completely different software applications all by different
 vendors, but by virtue of their speaking the same protocol, they can
 interoperate. And they will continue to interoperate with *future*
 OSes and software that haven't even been dreamed of yet, as long as
 the same protocol continues to be used.
 
 Had the designers of the internet back in its embryonic stages decided
 to standardize instead on a specific set of software programs from a
 single vendor that can only communicate amongst themselves, the
 internet wouldn't even *exist* today. Version incompatibilities,
 program bugs that become depended on (and therefore unfixable),
 non-interoperability with anything but software developed by that one
 vendor, etc., would have killed off the internet years before it
 became the internet.
 


[...]

 
 It's the protocols that matter. It's the protocols that build
 infrastructure. Walled-garden web forums are just an anachronism to
 the pre-internet days of gratuitous system incompatibilities,
 inability of interoperating, and pointless turf wars over which
 program is "better" (hint: they *all* suck).


Amen! (If I were a religious man I would print that out and tape it
into a bible as The Gospel According To Teoh and then go
missionary-ing with it. Ok, maybe not, but you get the point ;) )

I often feel like the Web-2.0/Cloud crowd is dragging us all back to
an equivalent of the DOS days where every program included its own set
of video/sound/printer drivers and every program's UI worked
completely differently. And worse, it's all claimed to be, and accepted
as, being amazing ingenious new technology and nothing short of
"better". Ridiculous. All these Web-2.0/Cloud jokers have done is
reinvent the 286: Except the 286 responded to user input much faster
than my 64-bit dual-core does when using their web-based so-called
"software". And the 286 didn't spit out tracebacks every goddamn
time I tried to run (or even install) Python-written crapware, because
mercifully there was no Python.



 All web forums assume (1) you're using a browser, (2) your browser is
 GUI-based, (3) your browser is configured with certain minimal
 features like Javascript, cookies, etc.. There is (1) no way to use
 anything *other* than a browser (and a *graphical* one to boot --
 it's so painful to use with a text browser you might as well be
 talking HTTP with a magnet, a pair of tweezers, and a really steady
 hand holding a cat5 cable) to use the forum, even though forums
 themselves have no inherent need for the bloated monstrosities that
 today's browsers have mutated into, (2) no way to access the forum
 data directly -- it's walled behind the guises of a graphical
 UI-centric paged interface designed for GUI users' consumption, and
 therefore inconvenient or just plain impossible for programs to work
 with directly, which results in (3) you *have* to use that interface
 to access that data, and if that interface is hard to use or buggy,
 well, life just sucks, deal with it.  IOW, (4) you cannot easily
 archive posts, sort them by thread, navigate them programmatically,
 back them up en masse in your personal archives.


The newer and really Web 2.0-ified forums probably offer REST APIs. But
even then you still have all the HTTP bloat and, much worse: each BB
server software package is still going to have its own unique,
non-standard API that's incompatible with every other BB system.
So...umm...yay for "progress"...



 Just ask Nick about github sometime. :-P :-P
 


Hee heh heh :)

I swear I'm going to have to make that github/bitbucket-commoditizing
tool sometime. But then some asshole will find someway to undo that
newly-created compatibility in the supposed name of "progress", and
we'll be right back to square one. Still, I swear I have to at least
attempt it sometime.
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:40:39 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 Hehe, it's cause no one uses it! if you check out most groups 
 they are full of spam ;/ Only good spam filters can control it 
 to any degree. With a BB, you require people to register which 
 will stop 95% of spam. The other 5% could be fixed by asking 
 more complex questions, stop posting of suspected spammers.


Web bulletin boards, especially those using off-the-shelf 
software and common anti-spam plugins, are very attractive to 
spammers.


 Do not allow new users to post more than 1 post an hour. Allow 
 certain people(not necessarily moderators) to kill spammers. 
 Block IP's from registering more than once a month or so, etc...


All of these are draconian restrictions that WILL get into honest 
people's way.


 There are many potential ways to reduce spam to near zero. Most 
 BB's I've used have near zero spam without any complex spam 
 protection mechanisms(as far as I know).


A certain popular forum I'm a moderator of sees almost zero 
publicly-visible spam.

Why?

Because each user's first 5 posts must be manually approved by a 
moderator before they are publicly visible.

This is a gruesome, tiring, repetitive task that no one wants to 
do every day.

Even worse, the software (a popular commercial forum package) 
doesn't even show these posts to the user who posted them. This 
creates more confusion and duplicate posts.

Anti-spam plugins are not a panacea. All of them have false 
positives, and - worse - false negatives. Furthermore, like any 
plugins/modifications, they complicate software maintenance and 
may break on software upgrades, thus possibly locking you into a 
potentially-vulnerable old version of the software.


 IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse to 
 make the transition. I think they are just being hard headed 
 though...


I think that's a rather close-minded viewpoint.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:54:45 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:40:39 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 Hehe, it's cause no one uses it! if you check out most groups 
 they are full of spam ;/ Only good spam filters can control it 
 to any degree. With a BB, you require people to register which 
 will stop 95% of spam. The other 5% could be fixed by asking 
 more complex questions, stop posting of suspected spammers.


 Web bulletin boards, especially those using off-the-shelf 
 software and common anti-spam plugins, are very attractive to 
 spammers.


 Do not allow new users to post more than 1 post an hour. Allow 
 certain people(not necessarily moderators) to kill spammers. 
 Block IP's from registering more than once a month or so, 
 etc...


 All of these are draconian restrictions that WILL get into 
 honest people's way.


 There are many potential ways to reduce spam to near zero. 
 Most BB's I've used have near zero spam without any complex 
 spam protection mechanisms(as far as I know).


 A certain popular forum I'm a moderator of sees almost zero 
 publicly-visible spam.

 Why?

 Because each user's first 5 posts must be manually approved by 
 a moderator before they are publicly visible.

 This is a gruesome, tiring, repetitive task that no one wants 
 to do every day.

 Even worse, the software (a popular commercial forum package) 
 doesn't even show these posts to the user who posted them. This 
 creates more confusion and duplicate posts.

 Anti-spam plugins are not a panacea. All of them have false 
 positives, and - worse - false negatives. Furthermore, like any 
 plugins/modifications, they complicate software maintenance and 
 may break on software upgrades, thus possibly locking you into 
 a potentially-vulnerable old version of the software.


 IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse 
 to make the transition. I think they are just being hard 
 headed though...


 I think that's a rather close-minded viewpoint.


Possibly but as you see, those that hate web based browsing 
simply hate it. I like both, hence I would think I have a better 
perspective. I think those that simply "hate" BB's because of 
some insignificant thing over all the benefit are the ones that 
are closed minded.

If spam is an issue then I'm sure there are way around it besides 
man-hours. Most spam is pretty predictable. I have a nntp filter 
that gets rid of 99% of the spam on newsgroups by simply using 
keywords(about 1000).

I believe I'm an honest user and I wouldn't mind waiting a week 
to make a post for my initial post. If one could limit 
registrations by spammers(block ip's) then this along would 
severely cut down the spam.

The fact remains though, nntp is dead(or dying), and it is also 
limiting in many ways. nntp is not the panacea that so many here 
are claiming. The only thing most seem to like about it is its 
interface. But that has nothing to do with the nntp protocol but 
the software. The nntp is decrepit. I'm not saying BB's are the 
best but they definitely have many many advantages over nntp.

Also, it's obvious that many users have been using nntp for a 
long time. This is another reason why many do not want to switch. 
Many younger users are used to the modern forum interfaces and 
will expect it. If you want to attract those users then maybe it 
is best to bite the bullet and switch. (It's not like you need 
one hand free to use a forum, or do you?)

IMO, all the complains about web based forums are superficial 
while my complains about nntp are not.

... but I guess no one said change would be easy(or even 
possible) ;/
Dec 05 2012
parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 01:33:33 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 Possibly but as you see, those that hate web based browsing 
 simply hate it. I like both, hence I would think I have a 
 better perspective. I think those that simply "hate" BB's 
 because of some insignificant thing over all the benefit are 
 the ones that are closed minded.


I don't hate BBs, but I do think the implementations are lacking 
in many areas. They are indeed designed to be used for casual 
discussion, as opposed to being optimized for prolonged use 
(keyboard navigation) and to support structured, constructive 
discussions (tree threading).


 If spam is an issue then I'm sure there are way around it 
 besides man-hours. Most spam is pretty predictable. I have a 
 nntp filter that gets rid of 99% of the spam on newsgroups by 
 simply using keywords(about 1000).


This is another example of a draconian solution that is easily 
avoided by a spammer.


 I believe I'm an honest user and I wouldn't mind waiting a week 
 to make a post for my initial post. If one could limit 
 registrations by spammers(block ip's) then this along would 
 severely cut down the spam.


I think many users won't share that opinion. If there is a topic 
that you want to contribute to, but will not be relevant one week 
from now, being denied from joining the discussion out of spam 
fear is absurd.


 The fact remains though, nntp is dead(or dying), and it is also 
 limiting in many ways. nntp is not the panacea that so many 
 here are claiming. The only thing most seem to like about it is 
 its interface. But that has nothing to do with the nntp 
 protocol but the software. The nntp is decrepit. I'm not saying 
 BB's are the best but they definitely have many many advantages 
 over nntp.

 Also, it's obvious that many users have been using nntp for a 
 long time. This is another reason why many do not want to 
 switch. Many younger users are used to the modern forum 
 interfaces and will expect it. If you want to attract those 
 users then maybe it is best to bite the bullet and switch.


The backend doesn't matter. Let's consider the individual 
advantages.

For example, I believe editing posts was mentioned. This is 
debatable. Some mediums which would allow implementing post 
editing explicitly chose to not allow it. One example is Slashdot 
comments: once you posted it, you can't take it back. One could 
say that having the option to edit posts facilitates sloppy 
posting (posting something without proofreading it, and then 
patching up any mistakes). However, different people will see 
different versions of the post (e.g. some BB software email a 
copy of the post - as it was posted - to those subscribed to the 
thread).

If you have a meaningful addition to an earlier post of yours, 
simply reply to it. With tree-like threading, it will not disrupt 
the conversation, even if it has by then reached other topics.

Suggestions for smaller improvements are welcome (preferably, in 
the form of pull requests) ;)


 (It's not like you need one hand free to use a forum, or do 
 you?)


???
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:40:38 +0100
"js.mdnq" <js_adddot+mdng gmail.com> wrote:


 On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 22:14:57 UTC, Walter Bright=20
 wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 8:50 AM, Alex R=F8nne Petersen wrote:

 The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not=20
 the server.


 That brings up another advantage of NNTP servers. It is very=20
 old technology, meaning the bugs have been worked out of it=20
 long ago. There is no constant issue of upgrading to the latest=20
 version to fix some obscure bugs, etc. Just turn it on and it=20
 works.

 And, lastly, there's a wonderful effect of NNTP not being where=20
 the "cool guys" are. The spammers overlook us! Sure, we get a=20
 drive-by slamming from a spammer maybe once a month, but by and=20
 large NNTP flies under the radar these days.


=20
 Hehe, it's cause no one uses it! if you check out most groups=20
 they are full of spam ;/


This one isn't. Neither is Vibe.d's: http://news.rejectedsoftware.com


 Only good spam filters can control it to=20
 any degree. With a BB, you require people to register which will=20
 stop 95% of spam. The other 5% could be fixed by asking more=20
 complex questions, stop posting of suspected spammers. Do not=20
 allow new users to post more than 1 post an hour. Allow certain=20
 people(not necessarily moderators) to kill spammers. Block IP's=20
 from registering more than once a month or so, etc...
=20
 There are many potential ways to reduce spam to near zero. Most=20
 BB's I've used have near zero spam without any complex spam=20
 protection mechanisms(as far as I know).


This one has near-zero spam *without* putting all those roadblocks in
front of users.


=20
 BB's have the ability to edit,


Limited editing would be nice (ex: for up to a few minutes after
initial posting), but replying with an addendum is pretty damn easy,
too. So this is a fairly minor thing.


 delete,


So does this. Most of the few troll posts we get *do* get deleted.


 and move posts.


Meh. Only rarely useful, and even then it's not really that big of a
deal.


 Allow easy image insertion,


That could be nice, but inserting a URL to an image is super-easy, too.

Besides, most web-based message boards make it too easy to insert
images. I've seen FAAAR too many message boards where every damn user
has about 3-5 images that they have auto-inserted into EVERY damn one
of their posts. The whole board just becomes a garbage heap of
pointless, idiotic avatars, with only a teensy amount of *real* content
in between all the visual narcissism.


 private messaging,


WTF? It's called "email".

I'll never understand why the "millennials" insist on re-inventing
established, open, and universally COMPATIBLE technologies with
a myriad of isolated, proprietary, walled-off equivalents. (Not that I
mean to single out that generation to pick on - I hate all generations,
including my own <g>)


 sticky threads,


A rather minor feature. If something needs to be "sticky" it may as
well just be a straight web page, maybe with a comment section if need
be.


 Also, the most popular BB's are pretty well tested because they=20
 are more widely used than nntp.


Like phpbb? ;) (Only kidding...)


 So while it is true they are=20
 newer and more sophisticated they also are actively supported.
=20
 IMO, the only downside is supporting legacy users who refuse to=20
 make the transition. I think they are just being hard headed=20
 though...


Calling us hard-headed old fogeys (even if not in such words) isn't
really a compelling argument, especially to us hard-headed old fogeys.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/6/12 1:47 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 This one isn't. Neither is Vibe.d's: http://news.rejectedsoftware.com


What do they use?

Andrei
Dec 06 2012
parent "Nathan M. Swan" <nathanmswan gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 18:55:19 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 12/6/12 1:47 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 This one isn't. Neither is Vibe.d's: 
 http://news.rejectedsoftware.com


 What do they use?

 Andrei


Vibenews, kinda like this forum:

http://registry.vibed.org/view_package/vibenews

It is both an HTTP and NNTP server.

NMS
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 21:50:44 UTC, Alex Rønne 
Petersen wrote:

 The latter is caused by bad(ly configured) NNTP clients, not 
 the server.


I think we've established that most instances of broken threads 
are caused by Mailman rewriting Message-IDs?
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent "MattCoder" <mattcoder hotmail.com> writes:
One thing that I think it's confused sometimes is the "thread 
split", like happened with this thread (Note: I access via: 
forum.dlang.org), overall I like this forum.

On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 18:28:04 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will 
 not post as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to 
 get the message or for it to be announced.

 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would 
 make it easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy 
 to setup.

 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 18:28:04 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will 
 not post as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to 
 get the message or for it to be announced.


Sorry about that. As far as I know, this only happened twice. 
Today it happened due to a regression I introduced while 
attempting to fix another problem. Hopefully, both are fixed now.

For the record, your posts aren't getting lost - the web frontend 
just never received the message back from the NNTP server to put 
it in its local cache.


 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would 
 make it easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy 
 to setup.


Such proposals have been extensively discussed in the past.


 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!


That wouldn't work for NNTP / email users.

The D forum is open-source, and help / contributions are welcome. 
I was actually hoping that the D community would be a bit more 
involved in its development, however for the moment I remain the 
sole author (as far as D code goes). Perhaps it is partially my 
fault, as the source code is not as organized as I would like it 
to be...
Dec 05 2012
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 11:31 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 The D forum is open-source, and help / contributions are welcome. I was
 actually hoping that the D community would be a bit more involved in its
 development, however for the moment I remain the sole author (as far as
 D code goes). Perhaps it is partially my fault, as the source code is
 not as organized as I would like it to be...


I was just thinking about that. I think part of the problem is nobody 
knows that it is open source or where to get it.

I suggest that, on each page generated, add a link to a page explaining 
what the forum software is, where it is, and how anyone may fork it, 
contribute to it, learn from it, etc.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:41:12 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 11:31 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 The D forum is open-source, and help / contributions are 
 welcome. I was
 actually hoping that the D community would be a bit more 
 involved in its
 development, however for the moment I remain the sole author 
 (as far as
 D code goes). Perhaps it is partially my fault, as the source 
 code is
 not as organized as I would like it to be...


 I was just thinking about that. I think part of the problem is 
 nobody knows that it is open source or where to get it.

 I suggest that, on each page generated, add a link to a page 
 explaining what the forum software is, where it is, and how 
 anyone may fork it, contribute to it, learn from it, etc.


Something like that already exists - the "Help" link.

I suppose I could expand the text a bit to make it clear that 
contributions are welcome.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 11:43 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 00:41:12 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 11:31 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 The D forum is open-source, and help / contributions are welcome. I was
 actually hoping that the D community would be a bit more involved in its
 development, however for the moment I remain the sole author (as far as
 D code goes). Perhaps it is partially my fault, as the source code is
 not as organized as I would like it to be...


 I was just thinking about that. I think part of the problem is nobody
 knows that it is open source or where to get it.

 I suggest that, on each page generated, add a link to a page
 explaining what the forum software is, where it is, and how anyone may
 fork it, contribute to it, learn from it, etc.


 Something like that already exists - the "Help" link.


To me, help implies something different.


 I suppose I could expand the text a bit to make it clear that
 contributions are welcome.
Dec 05 2012
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, December 06, 2012 14:30:43 Walter Bright wrote:

 Something like that already exists - the "Help" link.


 
 To me, help implies something different.


Yes. I would generally expect a button or link saying "help" to be for me to 
seek help rather than provide it. For instance, it's very common with 
applications to have a help menu, and it's for the user to seek help, not for 
them to provide it. "Contribute" or "Get the Source Code Here" or something 
like that would probably be better.

- Jonathan M Davis
Dec 05 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
Some statistics of how the D community chooses to communicate via 
news.digitalmars.com.

Unique authors in the past 30 days:

forum.dlang.org		157	57%
Mailman (mailing list)	 37	13%
NNTP (usenet protocol)	 82	30%
Total			276

Posts in the past 30 days:

forum.dlang.org		1520	31%
Mailman (mailing list)	 917	19%
NNTP (usenet protocol)	2446	50%
Total			4883
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
The way I use the newsgroup is I read via the email gateway, then 
post via the web interface. (Posting by email seems buggy as 
hell.)
Dec 05 2012
parent reply "Mike Parker" <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 02:52:00 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 The way I use the newsgroup is I read via the email gateway, 
 then post via the web interface. (Posting by email seems buggy 
 as hell.)


At home, I've been reading via Thunderbird and posting via the 
web interface. Since I installed Thunderbird on my new system, 
I've been unable to post from it at all. A few reinstalls 
fruitless web searches later, I give up. At work, I use the web 
interface.
Dec 05 2012
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 2:29 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 At home, I've been reading via Thunderbird and posting via the web
 interface. Since I installed Thunderbird on my new system, I've been
 unable to post from it at all. A few reinstalls fruitless web searches
 later, I give up. At work, I use the web interface.


I use TB to post from multiple machines. Something is wrong with your setup.
Dec 05 2012
next sibling parent reply "Mike Parker" <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 6 December 2012 at 06:09:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 2:29 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 At home, I've been reading via Thunderbird and posting via the 
 web
 interface. Since I installed Thunderbird on my new system, 
 I've been
 unable to post from it at all. A few reinstalls fruitless web 
 searches
 later, I give up. At work, I use the web interface.


 I use TB to post from multiple machines. Something is wrong 
 with your setup.



Yes, I've used TB for years and never had a problem until I 
installed it on my new box. I'm stumped.
Dec 06 2012
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/6/2012 7:59 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 Yes, I've used TB for years and never had a problem until I installed it
 on my new box. I'm stumped.


When I have a problem with TB on one machine and not another, I 
carefully compare the "account settings" for each, because it's usually 
there.
Dec 06 2012
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, December 06, 2012 20:44:23 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 12/6/2012 7:59 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 Yes, I've used TB for years and never had a problem until I installed it
 on my new box. I'm stumped.


 
 When I have a problem with TB on one machine and not another, I
 carefully compare the "account settings" for each, because it's usually
 there.


I don't use thunderbird, so I don't know how well it would work, but I 
generally try and just copy all of the files associated with my e-mail client 
from machine to machine so that I don't have to worry about setting everything 
up from scratch every time, and that also tends to avoid issues where one 
machine has different settings from another machine.

- Jonathan M Davis
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2012-12-06 07:09, Walter Bright wrote:


 I use TB to post from multiple machines. Something is wrong with your
 setup.


Same here. I also use Dropbox for syncing.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Dec 06 2012
prev sibling parent "Jesse Phillips" <Jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 at 18:28:04 UTC, js.mdnq wrote:

 I have a lot of trouble with the forum. Many times a msg will 
 not post as it sits in a cycle waiting for the nntp server to 
 get the message or for it to be announced.

 IMO there are much better forum software out there that would 
 make it easier to communicate about D than the current method.

 http://www.mybb.com/ is free, pretty good, and relatively easy 
 to setup.

 The ability to edit a post makes life much easier too!


Well my anecdotal story comes as one who never knew of NNTP until 
D.

I've found it really nice. I've not found a perfect client and 
had issue which I do not know if where blame would lie (like your 
cycle waiting for announcement).

This was some time ago now and I don't really participate in 
sites with BBs anymore. I find reddit to be the best visual 
threading interface, but it is read once (I don't have gold to 
show unread).

Anyway your listed great improvements over NNTP aren't very 
convincing. Of course we can replicate the great stuff of NNTP 
and provide standard BB features, but it isn't trivial work.

Some history, there is a D phpBB, it is rotting on and along with 
dsource.org. It is mainly for projects, but has some general D 
discussion boards.
Dec 06 2012