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digitalmars.D - Being Positive

reply Arun Chandrasekaran <aruncxy gmail.com> writes:
Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I 
don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum 
and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people not to 
post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict moderation, 
but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so much negative 
trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest to email 
Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your 
frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum.

Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved 
with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library is 
not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and 
negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to 
be reported to the respective library author.

The community is small when compared to other languages, so it is 
essential to keep the positive vibe to attract larger mass (to 
reach the critical mass at first hand).

We need great minds from across various industries and 
experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with 
what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative 
sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing crazy 
syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be worked 
upon.

D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome 
things we do with it.
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any 
 negative things?


No.



 Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved 
 with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library 
 is not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and 
 negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to 
 be reported to the respective library author.


It is a human right..to complain ;-)

You want to take away our human rights?? It won't happen ;-)

...doing so on the forum is no big deal as far as I am concerned 
... and if the complaint is important enough, the right people 
tend to here sooner or later. If not, their work gets discredited 
or people improve upon it.

and btw. Complaints aren't always legitimate complaints. People 
mostly see what they wan't to see.



 We need great minds from across various industries and 
 experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with 
 what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative 
 sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing 
 crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be 
 worked upon.

 D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome 
 things we do with it.


I think *very* differently, that is, I believe people should 
*NOT* be limited to expressing only the nice fluffy stuff we all 
like to hear.

You need to handle that negativity also, and not stop others from 
expressing it.

Negative emotions are as legitimate as positive emotions, and it 
a human right to express both.
Feb 12 2018
parent reply bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:32:29 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 It is a human right..to complain ;-)


Not to be that guy, but technically you have no rights in an 
online community.

You have privileges.
Feb 13 2018
parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 08:08:28 UTC, bauss wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:32:29 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
 wrote:

 It is a human right..to complain ;-)


 Not to be that guy, but technically you have no rights in an 
 online community.

 You have privileges.


You may have the privilege of participating in an online 
community, sure.

But expressing something 'negative' would fall under the right to 
freedom of thought, opinion, an expression (Article 19 of 
Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

It takes a very special kind of community to recognise that the 
community does not come at the expense of the rights of the 
individual. It also takes a very special kind of person to know 
that the individual does not come at the expense of the rights of 
the community.

Many communities, and individuals, continue to struggle with this 
philosophy - preferring one over the other. That is the real 
cause of conflict, not the expression of negativity.

Personally, I found that youtube video (Life is better with 
Rust's community automation - YouTube) rather disturbing.
Feb 13 2018
parent reply Abdulhaq <alynch4047 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:36:35 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 08:08:28 UTC, bauss wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:32:29 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
 wrote:





 Personally, I found that youtube video (Life is better with 
 Rust's community automation - YouTube) rather disturbing.


Psychotic rabbit disturbed by programming related video. In other 
news....
Feb 13 2018
parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 16:04:11 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 Psychotic rabbit disturbed by programming related video.
 In other news....


don't poke the rabbit.
Feb 13 2018
parent Jimmy Jar <covertlokiftw yahoo.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 at 01:19:55 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 16:04:11 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 Psychotic rabbit disturbed by programming related video.
 In other news....


 don't poke the rabbit.


To keep positive mind you should try to increase your followers 
rate in instagram. Try this out
https://zen-promo.com/view_likes_on_instagram
Decent tool to help you with.
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? 
 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on.


Yeah, I think it's a different community.
I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe because Rust doesn't 
promise to be a great language and people suffer enough from 
fighting their compiler all day, that they have no energy left 
for trolling?

All joking set apart - Rust has a few very active fanboys (like 
Steve Klabnik) who have a very loud, positive voice and push the 
crowd.
Maybe they also have better moderation and processes. For 
example, for D people don't like submitting Bugs on Bugzilla and 
rather post on the NG. I don't know the reason for this except 
for maybe that they don't want to create a Bugzilla account.

We should simply encourage everyone more actively to open issues 
instead of making threads over threads of the same issue.


 Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any 
 negative things?


There's also a technical solution to this: Hackernews-like 
up/down voting.

See e.g. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/84


 It shouldn't become strict moderation, but at the same time, I 
 really don't like seeing so much negative trend.


Yeah, it leaves a very bad impression even though D is great and 
some people can simply never have enough.


 I would even go to the extent and suggest to email 
 Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your 
 frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum.


http://screamintothevoid.com/



 We need great minds from across various industries and 
 experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with 
 what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative 
 sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing 
 crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be 
 worked upon.


Thanks a lot for this post!!
Don't let yourself get frustrated by the bad mood of some people 
in this NG.

The real actions and discussions happen on GitHub or Slack which 
have a very positive "vibe".
It's just a rather "exclusive" society on GitHub at the moment...


 D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome 
 things we do with it.


Yes, I absolutely agree. Please, let's spread the word!
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 02:29:46 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun 
 Chandrasekaran wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me 
 who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D 
 itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on 
 rust forum and so on.


 Yeah, I think it's a different community.
 I'm not sure why this is the case...


it's as you say...it's a different community.

Those communities that believe the community is more important 
than the individual, are the very communities that like to 
shutdown any negativity about that community.

It happens at the levels of countries (North Korea, Russia, 
Syria, Iran, and so many others).

It happens at the level of organisations too (corporate and 
non-corporate), and even at the social community level.

I think the D community is a very different social community, 
where individuals feel free to 'assert' themselves. That is a 
good thing in my opinion.

So negativity is a sign of healthy community (i.e. one that 
doesn't try to exert itself over the individual).

Now I don't equate that negativity with bullying or such things, 
i.e. actions that set out to do harm to others. That cannot be 
tolerated in any community.

But negativity is not harmful, except in those communities that 
want to exert their power over the individual.

This is essentially why negativity does not bother me. It's all a 
matter of perspective.
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling parent reply flamencofantasy <flamencofantasy gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 02:29:46 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun 
 Chandrasekaran wrote:

 [...]


 Yeah, I think it's a different community.
 I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe because Rust doesn't 
 promise to be a great language and people suffer enough from 
 fighting their compiler all day, that they have no energy left 
 for trolling?

 [...]


Never heard of Steve Klabnik but browsing through his blog I came 
across this;
http://words.steveklabnik.com/the-expressive-c-17-coding-challenge-in-rust
and here is the original C++ challenge;
https://www.fluentcpp.com/2017/10/23/results-expressive-cpp17-coding-challenge/

I wonder what the some code would like like in D.
Feb 13 2018
parent Arun Chandrasekaran <aruncxy gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 17:03:26 UTC, flamencofantasy 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 02:29:46 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun 
 Chandrasekaran wrote:

 [...]


 Yeah, I think it's a different community.
 I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe because Rust doesn't 
 promise to be a great language and people suffer enough from 
 fighting their compiler all day, that they have no energy left 
 for trolling?

 [...]


 Never heard of Steve Klabnik but browsing through his blog I 
 came across this;
 http://words.steveklabnik.com/the-expressive-c-17-coding-challenge-in-rust
 and here is the original C++ challenge;
 https://www.fluentcpp.com/2017/10/23/results-expressive-cpp17-coding-challenge/

 I wonder what the some code would like like in D.


Previous discussions on this: 
https://forum.dlang.org/post/or0o85$tvc$1 digitalmars.com
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? 
 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people 
 not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict 
 moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so 
 much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest 
 to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to 
 vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the 
 forum.

 Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved 
 with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library 
 is not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and 
 negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to 
 be reported to the respective library author.

 The community is small when compared to other languages, so it 
 is essential to keep the positive vibe to attract larger mass 
 (to reach the critical mass at first hand).

 We need great minds from across various industries and 
 experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with 
 what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative 
 sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing 
 crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be 
 worked upon.

 D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome 
 things we do with it.


I don't see a negative trend. It's always been negative around 
here, and I've never understood why. It's the best language I've 
used by a significant margin. D is the inverse of the Lisp 
community, which believes the Common Lisp Hyperspec was delivered 
on stone tablets.

I've even raised the issue myself. Everyone complains about 
Walter and Andrei and the lack of tools and so on, but I see a 
lot of progress. I don't really care about who isn't using D or 
why. For many years I saw the same thing in the Linux community 
yet year after year I had a computer that just worked.
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 03:15:44 bachmeier via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 I don't see a negative trend. It's always been negative around
 here, and I've never understood why. It's the best language I've
 used by a significant margin. D is the inverse of the Lisp
 community, which believes the Common Lisp Hyperspec was delivered
 on stone tablets.


I recall at least one conversation at a previous dconf about how it seemed
like users of other languages like Go tended to get really ticked at you if
you said anything bad about their language, whereas the D folks tended to
trash their own language. One suggestion was that it was a good sign,
because it showed that we felt secure enough about the language to be
willing to complain about it rather than feeling that we had to defend its
every flaw. I suspect that part of it is that a lot of folks seem to come to
D looking for the perfect language after having be frustrated by another
language like C++, and while D is a lot closer to that for many folks than
other languages are, it still has plenty of flaws, and we want those flaws
fixed so that it can become the perfect language. Obviously, that's not
going to happen. No language is perfect, but the vocal portion of the D
community does have a tendency to want to push for everything that's
arguably wrong with D to be fixed, and that can result in a lot of
negativity, but it can also result in things getting fixed (though that
requires actually doing something about it rather than just complaining).

Sometimes, many of us do seem to lose sight of the fact that even though D
isn't always where we want it to be, it's far closer than the languages that
we came from, and it's awesome even if it's not necessarily as awesome as it
theoretically could be.

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 12 2018
parent John Gabriele <jgabriele fastmail.fm> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 03:40:52 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

 {snip} I suspect that part of it is that a lot of folks seem to 
 come to D looking for the perfect language after having be 
 frustrated by another language like C++, and while D is a lot 
 closer to that for many folks than other languages are, it 
 still has plenty of flaws, and we want those flaws fixed so 
 that it can become the perfect language. Obviously, that's not 
 going to happen. No language is perfect, but the vocal portion 
 of the D community does have a tendency to want to push for 
 everything that's arguably wrong with D to be fixed, and that 
 can result in a lot of negativity, but it can also result in 
 things getting fixed (though that requires actually doing 
 something about it rather than just complaining).


I think what would help here is a D wiki page (maybe 
<https://wiki.dlang.org/Language_issues> could be expanded) that 
lists perceived flaws in the language, together with an 
explanation whether or not it's really considered a flaw, and if 
it is, why it's not being fixed. Those not-being-fixed reasons 
are the real crux of the issue, I think:

   * If the reason is lack of manpower or expertise in the area, 
then complaints about the flaw can be responded with, "see [that 
wiki page], can you pitch in?".

   * If the reason is that by fixing the issue it would cause 
problems {x}, {y}, and {z}, then the person raising the complaint 
learns something about language design.

   * If the reason is the language design team's personal 
preference on the matter, and the tradeoffs are listed, then 
users learn what the tradeoffs are and have to live with it.

   * If the reason for not fixing the issue is hesitation to break 
backward compatibility, then this may be an issue that D 
leadership wants to hear feedback on.

But I think pointing people to that wiki page and laying it out 
like that may diffuse a lot of arguments.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 03:15:44 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 I don't see a negative trend. [snip]


I don't know if there's a negative trend or not, but every 2 or 3 
months there's inevitably a thread about things D needs to add or 
improve that tends to devolve into complaints about the language.
Feb 12 2018
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/12/18 10:46 PM, jmh530 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 03:15:44 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 I don't see a negative trend. [snip]


 
 I don't know if there's a negative trend or not, but every 2 or 3 months 
 there's inevitably a thread about things D needs to add or improve that 
 tends to devolve into complaints about the language.


One thing that has happened visibly starting around December 2017 is 
that most activity has moved onto github. I can barely keep up with the 
action going on in there. This is good on many levels, among which 
obviously there's progress being made. Also, on github it's much easier 
to keep things on track because the implicit goal is to reach a binary 
conclusion pull/not, whereas in idle forum discussion the implicit 
incentive is to keep discussion going. -- Andrei
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling parent Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12 thebird.nl> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 03:15:44 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 I don't see a negative trend. It's always been negative around 
 here, and I've never understood why. It's the best language 
 I've used by a significant margin. D is the inverse of the Lisp 
 community, which believes the Common Lisp Hyperspec was 
 delivered on stone tablets.


Funny. Maybe it is a self-organising engineering culture that has 
evolved. We have a mixture of critical people here and the 
occasional nutcase. You see that in most popular FOSS projects, 
but D is pretty extreme.

The harmful part of all theses messages, apart from disgusting 
the more sensitive among us, is that I find people (say at this 
FOSDEM - btw great talk Kai) telling me that D is immature. These 
people read these threads. So they don't even try D. Being 
positive helps recruit people into trying things out on their 
own. I would not call it social engineering per se, but 
ultimately you want people to come in the door and try stuff. 
Only then will merit pay off.

I start to wonder if we just shut off and remove the forum 
history would actually improve the takeup of D. I wonder if 
project leaders would stop posting it would actually improve the 
takeup of D. Maybe we should just try that for a year. Someone I 
knew would (in the days of paper) move his inbox into the trash. 
He would say: if it is really important it will come back. A 
clean slate makes the day fresh.

My proposal: remove the forum and history completely and for a 
year only produce blogs. We still have github, bugzilla, DIPs 
etc. Plenty ways to express yourself and contribute. Project 
leaders stop posting so they can focus on the technical side of 
things.


 I've even raised the issue myself. Everyone complains about 
 Walter and Andrei and the lack of tools and so on, but I see a 
 lot of progress. I don't really care about who isn't using D or 
 why. For many years I saw the same thing in the Linux community 
 yet year after year I had a computer that just worked.


Yes. Remember the days everyone was using Windows and just a few 
of us were using Linux. I do not think D will be *that* 
successful, but it has enough momentum to keep going. It is a 
solid investment in my book.
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 02/12/2018 06:54 PM, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is 
 seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?


1. Can't fix a problem without first identifying a problem.

2. "We're all entitled to our opinions" does NOT come with the 
qualification "...but only if it's a happy glowing positive opinion that 
sprouts rainbows and makes the rabbits and lions sing together in 
blissful harmony."


 I don't 
 remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on.


Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using social 
engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of drumming out any and 
all dissenters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg

We don't do Orwellian here.


 Do 
 you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative 
 things?


No. God no. Again, that's straight out of the 1984 playbook. (Or maybe 
it's more Brave New World - don't know, don't care, it's sick and 
disturbing either way.)
Feb 12 2018
next sibling parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 04:29:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
(Abscissa) wrote:

 Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using 
 social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of 
 drumming out any and all dissenters:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


Hey..that was interesting.

1/3 of them there, just cause they're interested in the community 
side and couldn't care less what language it is.

Here at D, we don't give a stuff about the community, we just 
want a language to solve our problems - and we don't all have the 
same problems.

Ok..that's a little overstated...community is nice too... but 
problems that need to be solved are more important.

Lets ensure we promoting D to those that want to solve problems.
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 04:29:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
(Abscissa) wrote:

 Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using 
 social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of 
 drumming out any and all dissenters:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


a "friend of the tree"..  timepoint = 13:15

seems like Rust community are incorporating psychological 
manipulation techniques..similar to what scientology does.
Feb 12 2018
parent reply psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 05:10:29 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 04:29:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
 (Abscissa) wrote:

 Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using 
 social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of 
 drumming out any and all dissenters:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


 a "friend of the tree"..  timepoint = 13:15

 seems like Rust community are incorporating psychological 
 manipulation techniques..similar to what scientology does.


btw. Mozilla has long had an unusual interest in people 
specifically from the Oregon State University.

https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/browser-built-with-love-sweat-volunteers/

Emily Dunham (the one in that youtube video, is also a graduate 
of that university - hired by Mozilla on 2015).

Oregon is also considered to be "The First Scientology City".

now I don't want to be too much of conspiracist..but...
Feb 12 2018
parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 05:34:01 UTC, psychoticRabbit 
wrote:

 btw. Mozilla has long had an unusual interest in people 
 specifically from the Oregon State University.

 https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/browser-built-with-love-sweat-volunteers/

 Emily Dunham (the one in that youtube video, is also a graduate 
 of that university - hired by Mozilla on 2015).

 Oregon is also considered to be "The First Scientology City".

 now I don't want to be too much of conspiracist..but...


It was also interesting to listen to Emily as she effectively 
endorsed, praised, and encouraged, the Rust communities 
'moderation attack squad' (timepoint: 9:34), and pointing out how 
seriously 'the moderators team' need to take their duties 
(timepoint: 8:55).

Attack squads are in integral component within scientology too - 
although the actions of these squads are justified based on the 
so called 'Fair Game Policy' (instead of 'Code of Conduct'):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

... and so...the plot thickens..
Feb 12 2018
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 2/12/18 11:29 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:

A bunch of stuff I 100% agree with.

Thanks. Let's keep the negativity coming, and we'll all be better for it 
;) Problems don't get fixed if you ignore them or pretend they don't 
exist. It's part of a healthy debate. If you don't like the negativity, 
or you feel it's just trolling, ignore it.

-Steve
Feb 13 2018
parent Mike Franklin <slavo5150 yahoo.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 14:17:00 UTC, Steven 
Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 2/12/18 11:29 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:

 A bunch of stuff I 100% agree with.


Me too.  So refreshing to read.

Mike
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?


Well, programmers are engineers, and engineers tend to focus on 
things that need improvement. That has the downside that the 
attitude might stealthily get negative. That is likely to be the 
base reason.

Too positive an attitude in a wrong woy would stall the 
development. That does not mean negativity is desirable, just 
that it's sometimes hard to say what's constructive criticism and 
what's complaining.


 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on.


I don't feel the general attitude to be negative, I think many 
people are very positive here: Andrei, Ali and H.S.Teoh are 
excellent examples. And those who sound negative at times are 
being constructive.

It's true there are rant posts that fail to keep a good attitude, 
but I think they are usually from "outside" people. Regular D 
users are almost always reasonably nice.
Feb 12 2018
parent Wyatt <wyatt.epp gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 07:35:19 UTC, Dukc wrote:

 On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun 
 Chandrasekaran wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me 
 who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D 
 itself?


 Well, programmers are engineers, and engineers tend to focus on 
 things that need improvement.


We aren't constantly effusive and positive because we care.  We 
care and we see the cracks in the plaster and know that we, all 
of us, can do better; can BE better.

Often all in different ways that others don't agree with.

And that's fine.

That said, there's a difference between constructive and 
destructive negativity. It pays to recognise the difference and 
not indulge the latter.

-Wyatt
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply JN <666total wp.pl> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? 
 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people 
 not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict 
 moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so 
 much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest 
 to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to 
 vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the 
 forum.


"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain 
about and the ones nobody uses."
Feb 12 2018
parent Dukc <ajieskola gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 07:47:39 UTC, JN wrote:

 "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people 
 complain about and the ones nobody uses."


Wasn't that from Bjarne Stroustrup?
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?


That's because people love D so much they want it to become 
better.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dave Jones <dave jones.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? 
 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people 
 not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict 
 moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so 
 much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest 
 to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to 
 vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the 
 forum.


I think the thing is that the main D newsgroup has always felt 
like a bunch of people arguing over how to make D better, and 
that's kind of what it's always been, new ideas and directions 
are discussed in here by the main devs. Do Go and Rust have 
similar user groups, or do they do all that kind of stuff behind 
closed doors and then dictate from the top of a tower?

Arguing, friction, grumbling, it's all a symptom of Ds open 
volunteer based development process IMO.
Feb 13 2018
parent psychoticRabbit <meagain meagain.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 09:46:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

 Arguing, friction, grumbling, it's all a symptom of Ds open 
 volunteer based development process IMO.


It's also how democracy works.

Walk into any parliament session, in any democracy, and you will 
see arguing, friction and grumbling.

You won't however, see that in authoritarian countries.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?


Here's an example from 2013, just a few months after I started 
using D. Andrei posted that Facebook had started using D in 
production. Someone thought the best possible response was to 
post this:

When you will look at claim that some language (lets take for 

the feature is supported. In D this for sure means that the 
feature is either broken or misdesigned (shared libraries, 
routine code breakages, obsolete ms32 object format, AA arrays, 
shared, const postblits, odd template crosstalk bugs, type system 
holes, segfaulting lambdas, unstable stdlib, absent of 
third-party libraries). Untill this stuff is fixed this is a huge 
barrier irrespective of whether D is used in Facebook or not.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <notthat email.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? 
 I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust 
 forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people 
 not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict 
 moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so 
 much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest 
 to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to 
 vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the 
 forum.


Several structural reasons for negativity (I'll be negative 
myself saying all that):

- It's an internet forum - and an addictive one - so each message 
has a bit of social standing at stake. Strong talk is thus 
mechanically encouraged, makes you appear strong and 
knowledgeable, like a big meeting room. It's common for internet 
forums to devolve into negativity.

- Because we don't ban people from the forums, some individuals 
that don't use D and have zero skin in the game come here to 
spread negativity at every occasion.

If you delve into the smaller D communitites they aren't 
especially negative, on the contrary. The forums are not the D 
community at large, it's an addictive subset of it. If the forums 
were _worse_ to use, we wouldn't have this problem.
Feb 13 2018
prev sibling parent reply 9il <ilyayaroshenko gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran 
wrote:

 Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who 
 is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?


The reason is (as I see it) is very simple. People have/had a lot 
of expectations about the language, its future and 
invest/invested a lot of their time/money to the language. But D 
is a community driven language and sometime we can have question 
like that:

- - - - -
Do we have strong business driven goals? (Go)
Do we have strong theory driven goals? (Rust)
Do we follow main initial promise to be better / to replace C/C++?

The last one question is the most important. Instead of targeting 
a real market for as, which is C/C++, we are building a "trendy" 
language to compete with Python/Java/Go/Rust. Trends are changing 
but C/C++ market are waiting us!
- - - - -

Community is moving. I see it during 8-9 years. The problem is 
direction and speed.

So, if you see next time a negative emotions from someone just 
remember that possibly this person likes the language and wants 
it to be better then it is.

Best,
Ilya
Feb 13 2018
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 18:25:25 UTC, 9il wrote:

 Do we follow main initial promise to be better / to replace 
 C/C++?

 The last one question is the most important. Instead of 
 targeting a real market for as, which is C/C++, we are building 
 a "trendy" language to compete with Python/Java/Go/Rust. Trends 
 are changing but C/C++ market are waiting us!


That is probably true. Also in the convenience department any 
small language will have problems reaching a high valuation...

Rust seems to be able to pick up some of the C market though.
Feb 13 2018