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digitalmars.D - An extolment for Walter

reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for 
change. While there are many times that he does finally make changes he 
was hardily against, "Shown the light" you might say. I believe that he 
should not only be applauded for putting up with some of the attacks 
toward him, but that this stone wall helps to clearly define the problem.

With such strong views coming from both ends, ideas build on each other 
to provide what could be a much better solution. We still have yet to 
really see what has come out from the Const stuff, however without such 
great opposition to it some serious problems my not have been resolved. 
Many are still unsure of this new direction and there is go reason to be.

I do not wish to say that Walter is alway correct in his standings, only 
that it provides a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result 
in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be there. 
And I believe even those that become frustrated trying to get a change 
across no matter how trivial it seems do agree on the benefits from 
having such a barrier.
Jul 09 2008
next sibling parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for 
 change. While there are many times that he does finally make changes he 
 was hardily against, "Shown the light" you might say. I believe that he 
 should not only be applauded for putting up with some of the attacks 
 toward him, but that this stone wall helps to clearly define the problem.
 
 With such strong views coming from both ends, ideas build on each other 
 to provide what could be a much better solution. We still have yet to 
 really see what has come out from the Const stuff, however without such 
 great opposition to it some serious problems my not have been resolved. 
 Many are still unsure of this new direction and there is go reason to be.
 
 I do not wish to say that Walter is alway correct in his standings, only 
 that it provides a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result 
 in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be there. 
 And I believe even those that become frustrated trying to get a change 
 across no matter how trivial it seems do agree on the benefits from 
 having such a barrier.


while I completely agree with the goal of:
<qoute>
 provide a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result
 in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be
 there.
</qoute>
I'm not sure the current way is the best for D. Instead of arguing for
ever for each tiny change until the community can persuade Walter to
change something in D - like the recent change to the opEqueals return
type to bool (that only took what, two years?) there are other much more
efficient ways to provide a buffer to protect the language from unneeded
changes.
Python for example has pypy, a python compiler written in python. every
new feature or idea proposed by the community has a pep (that's how they
call that, right?) and if needed they can easily develop an extension to
the that compiler (easy to do since pypy is written in python and not C)
that can be tested in a separate version outside of the "real" python
language. just create a prototype and test new ideas. if it works than
it would be integrated in a future version of python. if it doesn't work
just discard that code and move on.
same thing goes even for C++: there's an experimental branch of gcc to
test the design of features that will be added to c++0x. I recall
stumbling online on a gcc-concepts version to test the new concepts
feature, for example.
D doesn't have anything like this. the thread about a compiler-kit
showed that. people offer to pay 100$ to get the DMD backend as a lib. I
know that the money is not the main issue here and that Walter has
copyright concerns and such, but nevertheless this hurts D since there
is no way to test new ideas, and Walter puts this wall to protect the
released version of D.

All I want to say is basically: wouldn't it be better for D and much
faster if people could just create a modified test version of dmd to
test new ideas instead of trying to convince Walter to test those same
ideas himself? that way const would have been solved by now, and the 3
versions of it could have been developed simultaneously and require much
less effort to change.
D needs something akin to debian's three branches, IMO.
Jul 10 2008
next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Yigal Chripun" <yigal100 gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:g55vng$2b6q$1 digitalmars.com...


 change something in D - like the recent change to the opEqueals return
 type to bool (that only took what, two years?)


Oh, longer than that!  Arcane Jill was arguing for it in 2004, and probably 
earlier.
Jul 10 2008
parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:58:36 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:


 "Yigal Chripun" <yigal100 gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:g55vng$2b6q$1 digitalmars.com...
 

 change something in D - like the recent change to the opEqueals return
 type to bool (that only took what, two years?)


 
 Oh, longer than that!  Arcane Jill was arguing for it in 2004, and
 probably earlier.


We didn't have a bool type at that time, though maybe it was for bit? 
Anyway, implementation time vs convincing it should be changed.

Yigal, I like your idea, but as Walter has said there are open-source 
compilers and if GCC is to much off a headache finish LVDCSGORO whatever.
Jul 10 2008
parent Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Jesse Phillips wrote:

 On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:58:36 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 

 "Yigal Chripun" <yigal100 gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:g55vng$2b6q$1 digitalmars.com...


 change something in D - like the recent change to the opEqueals return
 type to bool (that only took what, two years?)


 Oh, longer than that!  Arcane Jill was arguing for it in 2004, and
 probably earlier.


 
 We didn't have a bool type at that time, though maybe it was for bit? 
 Anyway, implementation time vs convincing it should be changed.
 
 Yigal, I like your idea, but as Walter has said there are open-source 
 compilers and if GCC is to much off a headache finish LVDCSGORO whatever.


Two problems:
A) as already noted by others, messing with gcc source code is not easy
and that is a major point in my post. there's a reason python uses pypy
to test new features instead of their C based implementation: what would
take a month with c is done in a day or two with python. You don't care
for performance for this since it's just for testing purposes. when the
python devs are convinced that the feature should be added to the
official version than they'll port it to C, optimize it, etc..
using gcc to test new features is the complete reverse of that.

B) this point is even more important - pypy is officially used by the
python devs. sure I can use gcd to test new ideas. I also can use other
compilers like dil, dang, etc. since those are not the official
reference implementation than if the new idea does pan out to be a good
thing, it still doesn't mean Walter will even look at it and consider
adding it to dmd. than we go back to trying to convince him that we have
a good idea. the whole process I described needs to be part of the
development process of the official reference implementation in order to
be effective, otherwise, we get a fork of D.
the gcc-concepts branch for example is the version used by the c++
committee itself for testing purposes, not a third-party fork of gcc.
it'll be merged to the gcc main trunk when the feature is finalized.
same goes for all the approved pypy extensions for python.
thus, Walter needs to be part of such a development process and be the
final decision maker on what new ideas will be incorporated into D.
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Yigal,


 Python for example has pypy, a python compiler written in python.
 every new feature or idea proposed by the community has a pep (that's
 how they call that, right?) and if needed they can easily develop an
 extension to the that compiler (easy to do since pypy is written in
 python and not C)
 


without actually reading the whole post...

and as a shameless plug...

I'm kind of working on a D compiler in D that has some of that in mind. I 
want adding "optional language features" to be easy. I think I have even 
found a way (on the fly regeneration of vtbls and other evil hacks) to do it.

OTOH I'm not making progress very fast to that puts a bit of salt on the 
issue.
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Yigal Chripun wrote:

 All I want to say is basically: wouldn't it be better for D and much
 faster if people could just create a modified test version of dmd to
 test new ideas instead of trying to convince Walter to test those same
 ideas himself? that way const would have been solved by now, and the 3
 versions of it could have been developed simultaneously and require much
 less effort to change.


There's a 100% open source implementation of D - gdc. If someone wants 
to create an experimental branch, like gcc-concepts, it only takes 
motivation.
Jul 10 2008
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:g563h5$2kvl$1 digitalmars.com...

 Yigal Chripun wrote:

 All I want to say is basically: wouldn't it be better for D and much
 faster if people could just create a modified test version of dmd to
 test new ideas instead of trying to convince Walter to test those same
 ideas himself? that way const would have been solved by now, and the 3
 versions of it could have been developed simultaneously and require much
 less effort to change.


 There's a 100% open source implementation of D - gdc. If someone wants to 
 create an experimental branch, like gcc-concepts, it only takes 
 motivation.


It takes that...and the patience and masochism to actually dive into the gcc 
source.

Seriously, I tried twice to merge GDC with DevKitARM (another unofficial GCC 
branch that adds support for modern Nintendo targets) and gave up both times 
because every little step of the way was such an unbelievable 
pain-in-the-ass. There's at least one other person that attempted it too, 
and the last time I heard anything about it (many months ago) he hadn't 
gotten much farther than I had.
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Markus Koskimies <markus reaaliaika.net> writes:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:47:02 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:


 Yigal Chripun wrote:

 All I want to say is basically: wouldn't it be better for D and much
 faster if people could just create a modified test version of dmd to
 test new ideas instead of trying to convince Walter to test those same
 ideas himself? that way const would have been solved by now, and the 3
 versions of it could have been developed simultaneously and require
 much less effort to change.


 
 There's a 100% open source implementation of D - gdc. If someone wants
 to create an experimental branch, like gcc-concepts, it only takes
 motivation.


Well, if the things would be so simple...

It is not about creating a branch. It is about having a D compiler. All 
things that strive the people to different directions weak the community.

Personally, I like D. Otherwise I would not be posting here. 
Professionally, I can only suggest D for freetime activities. It is not 
about the superiority of the language spec; it is about having a stable 
environment to build things.

Anyway, I'm a bit fed up with all these things. If we do not want to co-
operate, next time I change to my "T" programming language (T stands for 
ToyHLL, and it has several fancy command line arguments, like being a 
serious smart-ass).
Jul 10 2008
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Markus Koskimies wrote:

 Personally, I like D. Otherwise I would not be posting here. 
 Professionally, I can only suggest D for freetime activities. It is not 
 about the superiority of the language spec; it is about having a stable 
 environment to build things.


I don't know really what you're asking for. Is it to have a D compiler 
that anyone can modify and try new things out, or is it a stable 
compiler that only gets bug fixes?
Jul 10 2008
parent Markus Koskimies <markus reaaliaika.net> writes:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:48:46 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:


 Markus Koskimies wrote:

 Personally, I like D. Otherwise I would not be posting here.
 Professionally, I can only suggest D for freetime activities. It is not
 about the superiority of the language spec; it is about having a stable
 environment to build things.


 
 I don't know really what you're asking for. Is it to have a D compiler
 that anyone can modify and try new things out, or is it a stable
 compiler that only gets bug fixes?


Not a compiler, that anyone can modify :D With stable I mean other things 
than releases containing only bugfixes; like I posted before, I have had 
big difficulties to get my earlier D programs being compiled in my one-
week-old 64-bit Linux machine.

The stability I mean is probably not the issue in the next few years. If 
I can hope something, I would like to see DMD, GDC, Phobos and Tango to 
get closer each other. They are not competitors to each other; the 
success of D is up to the number of users it has.
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply superdan <super dan.org> writes:
Jesse Phillips Wrote:


 I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for 
 change. While there are many times that he does finally make changes he 
 was hardily against, "Shown the light" you might say. I believe that he 
 should not only be applauded for putting up with some of the attacks 
 toward him, but that this stone wall helps to clearly define the problem.
 
 With such strong views coming from both ends, ideas build on each other 
 to provide what could be a much better solution. We still have yet to 
 really see what has come out from the Const stuff, however without such 
 great opposition to it some serious problems my not have been resolved. 
 Many are still unsure of this new direction and there is go reason to be.
 
 I do not wish to say that Walter is alway correct in his standings, only 
 that it provides a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result 
 in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be there. 
 And I believe even those that become frustrated trying to get a change 
 across no matter how trivial it seems do agree on the benefits from 
 having such a barrier.


amen brother. but somehow no matter what walter does, some people still keep on
optimizing for their benefit and never think of not adding to walter's already
full plate. walter cranks one release a month. every fucking month there's new
stuff. and his reward? he must release twice a month! why? because we don't
give a fuck about walter's being busy with a fucking brazillion things already.
let him eat cake. shit. say it ain't so, walter!
Jul 10 2008
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
superdan wrote:

 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 

 I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for 
 change. While there are many times that he does finally make changes he 
 was hardily against, "Shown the light" you might say. I believe that he 
 should not only be applauded for putting up with some of the attacks 
 toward him, but that this stone wall helps to clearly define the problem.

 With such strong views coming from both ends, ideas build on each other 
 to provide what could be a much better solution. We still have yet to 
 really see what has come out from the Const stuff, however without such 
 great opposition to it some serious problems my not have been resolved. 
 Many are still unsure of this new direction and there is go reason to be.

 I do not wish to say that Walter is alway correct in his standings, only 
 that it provides a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result 
 in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be there. 
 And I believe even those that become frustrated trying to get a change 
 across no matter how trivial it seems do agree on the benefits from 
 having such a barrier.


 
 amen brother. but somehow no matter what walter does, some people still keep
on optimizing for their benefit and never think of not adding to walter's
already full plate. walter cranks one release a month. every fucking month
there's new stuff. and his reward? 



 he must release twice a month! why? because we don't give a fuck about
walter's being busy with a fucking brazillion things already.. let him eat
cake. shit. say it ain't so, walter!


If you're referring to my suggestion of regression-fix releases, I'd 
gladly take 1 usable release per 4 months over 4 unusable releases over 
the same 4 months.

--bb
Jul 10 2008
parent superdan <super dan.org> writes:
Bill Baxter Wrote:


 superdan wrote:

 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 

 I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for 
 change. While there are many times that he does finally make changes he 
 was hardily against, "Shown the light" you might say. I believe that he 
 should not only be applauded for putting up with some of the attacks 
 toward him, but that this stone wall helps to clearly define the problem.

 With such strong views coming from both ends, ideas build on each other 
 to provide what could be a much better solution. We still have yet to 
 really see what has come out from the Const stuff, however without such 
 great opposition to it some serious problems my not have been resolved. 
 Many are still unsure of this new direction and there is go reason to be.

 I do not wish to say that Walter is alway correct in his standings, only 
 that it provides a very good buffer to stupid changes that would result 
 in later removal and rabid feature growth that does not need to be there. 
 And I believe even those that become frustrated trying to get a change 
 across no matter how trivial it seems do agree on the benefits from 
 having such a barrier.


 
 amen brother. but somehow no matter what walter does, some people still keep
on optimizing for their benefit and never think of not adding to walter's
already full plate. walter cranks one release a month. every fucking month
there's new stuff. and his reward? 


 

 he must release twice a month! why? because we don't give a fuck about
walter's being busy with a fucking brazillion things already.. let him eat
cake. shit. say it ain't so, walter!


 
 If you're referring to my suggestion of regression-fix releases, I'd 
 gladly take 1 usable release per 4 months over 4 unusable releases over 
 the same 4 months.


me too. but being realistic, that was never the case. people give more work to
walter so they don't wait one month.
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to superdan,


 and his reward? he must
 release twice a month! 


Not commenting on your point, but...

at one point, circa 0.130, Walter /was/ cranking out several versions a month. 
(OTOH if you count v1 and v2 he still is)
Jul 10 2008
parent superdan <super dan.org> writes:
BCS Wrote:


 Reply to superdan,
 

 and his reward? he must
 release twice a month! 


 
 Not commenting on your point, but...
 
 at one point, circa 0.130, Walter /was/ cranking out several versions a month. 
 (OTOH if you count v1 and v2 he still is)


nice surprise. thought you killfiled me :)
Jul 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Markus Koskimies <markus reaaliaika.net> writes:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:59:23 -0400, superdan wrote:


 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 

 I wish to express my gratitude towards Walter for his reluctance for
 change. 




C'mon people! We are all human, with very limited capability of 
understanding about the wrold spinning around of us. We all have our good 
& bad sides. Yes, certainly I appropriate Walter just like Linus 
(Torvals), but both of them can (and are) be occasionally wrong; that 
doesn't make them not a better nor worse people. And I don't blame not 
Bright and not Torvalds being wrong or right, it is just the way the 
things go around :D
Jul 10 2008
parent reply Markus Koskimies <markus reaaliaika.net> writes:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:28:04 +0000, Markus Koskimies wrote:

And an addition, which is something I regularly do;


 C'mon people! We are all human, with very limited capability of
 understanding about the wrold spinning around of us. We all have our
 good & bad sides. Yes, certainly I appropriate Walter just like Linus
 (Torvals), but both of them can (and are) be occasionally wrong; that
 doesn't make them not a better nor worse people. And I don't blame not
 Bright and not Torvalds being wrong or right, it is just the way the
 things go around :D


The best we can do is to surround us with brigther(*) people we are. The 
most important thing is not having resistance; it is all about selecting 
the direction - you will never please all the people!

(*) Sounds silly in English, I know...
Jul 10 2008
parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Markus Koskimies wrote:

 On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:28:04 +0000, Markus Koskimies wrote:
 
 And an addition, which is something I regularly do;
 

 C'mon people! We are all human, with very limited capability of
 understanding about the wrold spinning around of us. We all have our
 good & bad sides. Yes, certainly I appropriate Walter just like Linus
 (Torvals), but both of them can (and are) be occasionally wrong; that
 doesn't make them not a better nor worse people. And I don't blame not
 Bright and not Torvalds being wrong or right, it is just the way the
 things go around :D


 
 The best we can do is to surround us with brigther(*) people we are. The 
 most important thing is not having resistance; it is all about selecting 
 the direction - you will never please all the people!


And about staying focused on what's important to keep you moving in that 
direction... rather than wasting time on the net posting pointless 
comments.  Kinda like I'm posting now. :-{


 (*) Sounds silly in English, I know...


Doesn't sound silly at all.  Well, it should be "surround ourselves with 
people brighter than we are", but other than that it sounds fine.  :-)

--bb
Jul 10 2008
parent reply Markus Koskimies <markus reaaliaika.net> writes:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:41:33 +0900, Bill Baxter wrote:

 (*) Sounds silly in English, I know...


 
 Doesn't sound silly at all.  Well, it should be "surround ourselves with
 people brighter than we are", but other than that it sounds fine.  :-)


Walter Bright -> Brigher people -> sounds silly to me, although I'm just 
a Finnish (and C, C++, assembler) speaking guy.. :blush:
Jul 10 2008
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Markus Koskimies" <markus reaaliaika.net> wrote in message 
news:g56i66$1h9i$22 digitalmars.com...

 On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:41:33 +0900, Bill Baxter wrote:

 (*) Sounds silly in English, I know...


 Doesn't sound silly at all.  Well, it should be "surround ourselves with
 people brighter than we are", but other than that it sounds fine.  :-)


 Walter Bright -> Brigher people -> sounds silly to me, although I'm just
 a Finnish (and C, C++, assembler) speaking guy.. :blush:


Ahh, I didn't catch the pun either :)
Jul 10 2008