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digitalmars.D - An example of why I hate the web

reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
so let's say we have a list with possibly null items

1 : valid address
2 : valid address
3 : valid address
4 : valid address
5 : valid address
6 : valid address
7 : valid address
8 : valid address
9 : valid address
10: valid address
11: valid address
12: valid address
13: valid address
14: valid address
15: valid address
16: valid address
17: invalid address
18: valid address
19: valid address
20: valid address
21: valid address
etc

what happens with those fucking overpaid web developpers is that 
from 19 you'll get 18.
And this happens in MAJOR companies. I'll show you:

1. opens https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD0F172BF355B0729
2. starts the first item of this playlist.
3. go full screen, at the left you see an icon to display the 
list, click on this.
4. click on item 20, should be "Luthier - Magnum Opus (Crazibiza 
Remix)"

and observe what you get. What you get is not item 20 but item 
19, so "Logotech" stuff thing etc.

This happens because the fullscreen playlist is cleaned. Item 17 
is removed so from item 18 you got the previous one. The guys who 
had the idea to remove invalid items from the fullscreen playlist 
just continued to use the index... you see how this is dumb, OMG.

So of course this is just a stupid playlist at youtube, i.e a 
Google company.
But what you get every day by overpaid enginneers is that.

They cant even manage an association list.
Imagine how many they are paid ? They have **no fucking clue 
about about what they do**.
You see this is not even an interesting bug.
Mar 02 2020
next sibling parent reply IGotD- <nise nise.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 
 ...
 


What does this have to do with the D language?
Mar 02 2020
parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:24:17 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 
 ...
 


 What does this have to do with the D language?


nothing but, admitting you've verified the problem, just be 
better than that. Dont fall in the trap of what is mainstream or 
not. The bug I describe is part of the mainstream. YT is supposed 
to work with the most clever guys on the earth you see, they can 
hire them. But still, they cant manage an association list.
Mar 02 2020
parent reply SrMordred <patric.dexheimer gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:47:50 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:24:17 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 
 ...
 


 What does this have to do with the D language?


 nothing but, admitting you've verified the problem, just be 
 better than that. Dont fall in the trap of what is mainstream 
 or not. The bug I describe is part of the mainstream. YT is 
 supposed to work with the most clever guys on the earth you 
 see, they can hire them. But still, they cant manage an 
 association list.


I heard and see enough from Google/Face/large companies to 
believe that they have everything but the clever guys.
Mar 02 2020
parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 03:54:51 UTC, SrMordred wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:47:50 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:24:17 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 
 ...
 


 What does this have to do with the D language?


 nothing but, admitting you've verified the problem, just be 
 better than that. Dont fall in the trap of what is mainstream 
 or not. The bug I describe is part of the mainstream. YT is 
 supposed to work with the most clever guys on the earth you 
 see, they can hire them. But still, they cant manage an 
 association list.


 I heard and see enough from Google/Face/large companies to 
 believe that they have everything but the clever guys.


One problem is also maybe a kind of haughty attitude towards bugs.
You see "the ignoble task" that nody wants to do because 
everybody feels that he's got more value than that.

Side note: I'm sorry to see that the topic was discussed. I even 
expected it to be removed when I've clicked on dlang.org today to 
read the news.
Mar 04 2020
parent reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 March 2020 at 19:40:17 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 03:54:51 UTC, SrMordred wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:47:50 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 01:24:17 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 
 ...
 


 What does this have to do with the D language?


 nothing but, admitting you've verified the problem, just be 
 better than that. Dont fall in the trap of what is mainstream 
 or not. The bug I describe is part of the mainstream. YT is 
 supposed to work with the most clever guys on the earth you 
 see, they can hire them. But still, they cant manage an 
 association list.


 I heard and see enough from Google/Face/large companies to 
 believe that they have everything but the clever guys.


 One problem is also maybe a kind of haughty attitude towards 
 bugs.
 You see "the ignoble task" that nody wants to do because 
 everybody feels that he's got more value than that.

 Side note: I'm sorry to see that the topic was discussed. I 
 even expected it to be removed when I've clicked on dlang.org 
 today to read the news.


Seriously, I thought that at some point there would be a claiming 
such as

"we, at dee lang dot org, dont know who is this Basile, 
pretendind that google engineers are bad. We dont know this guy. 
Even if he bashes you after you thought we are not good enough 
for the GSOC".
Mar 05 2020
parent Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy gmail.com> writes:
On 3/5/20 2:30 PM, Basile B. wrote:
...

This is the most inappropriate thing I've ever read on this forum. And 
that's saying something, as most people who have been here a long time 
have seen a lot.

Please stop.

-Steve
Mar 05 2020
prev sibling next sibling parent reply jxel <jxel gmall.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 So of course this is just a stupid playlist at youtube, i.e a 
 Google company.
 But what you get every day by overpaid enginneers is that.

 They cant even manage an association list.
 Imagine how many they are paid ? They have **no fucking clue 
 about about what they do**.
 You see this is not even an interesting bug.


Google is a big company, I wouldn't doubt that was implemented by 
an intern. Everyone else probably has something more important to 
work on.
Mar 02 2020
next sibling parent reply Borax Man <rotflol2 hotmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 04:19:58 UTC, jxel wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 So of course this is just a stupid playlist at youtube, i.e a 
 Google company.
 But what you get every day by overpaid enginneers is that.

 They cant even manage an association list.
 Imagine how many they are paid ? They have **no fucking clue 
 about about what they do**.
 You see this is not even an interesting bug.


 Google is a big company, I wouldn't doubt that was implemented 
 by an intern. Everyone else probably has something more 
 important to work on.


Partly relevant, this video is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko

I have noted that even though software crashes less now than it 
used to, it often works incorrectly. I use 'big name' software at 
work, and often it just does what it's not supposed to do.  For 
example, a crappy UI for a shared drive would delete the wrong 
file, then seem to restore the wrong file, but then the right 
file would appear when you navigate.
Mar 04 2020
parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 09:17:07AM +0000, Borax Man via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 I have noted that even though software crashes less now than it used
 to, it often works incorrectly. I use 'big name' software at work, and
 often it just does what it's not supposed to do.  For example, a
 crappy UI for a shared drive would delete the wrong file, then seem to
 restore the wrong file, but then the right file would appear when you
 navigate.


I betcha the bug is in a legacy module that nobody understands or dares
to fix anymore, and instead of fixing the actual problem, the GUI code
implements a hack to detect (unreliably) the problem and paper over it,
either with an anemic attempt to correct the problem after the fact, or
with an outright lie (display the right output in spite of the actual
data being wrong). It's just business as usual in an "enterprise"
project.

After having worked for ~2 decades in the industry, this doesn't
surprise me anymore; I've seen it all. It's the result of the typical
unhealthy software development office environment: high turnover,
unrealistic deadlines, unclear requirements, lack of communication,
absence of documentation, and a rampant attitude of
every-man-for-himself, its-not-my-problem blame avoidance caused by
toxic office politics. The scale of the problem is proportional to the
number of people on the project, and is especially bad in large
corporate environments. This is why I have a high level of distrust in
any software produced by a large company. The larger it is, the worse
the problems will be. Sometimes there are exceptions, but generally
speaking this is the case. I've stopped expecting anything good to come
out of big companies, and now I no longer need to be constantly
disappointed. :-P


T

-- 
Heads I win, tails you lose.
Mar 04 2020
prev sibling parent Vijay Nayar <madric gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 04:19:58 UTC, jxel wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 So of course this is just a stupid playlist at youtube, i.e a 
 Google company.
 But what you get every day by overpaid enginneers is that.

 They cant even manage an association list.
 Imagine how many they are paid ? They have **no fucking clue 
 about about what they do**.
 You see this is not even an interesting bug.


 Google is a big company, I wouldn't doubt that was implemented 
 by an intern. Everyone else probably has something more 
 important to work on.


Having worked at Google for 3 years, I can tell you that this 
does actually happen.  I hosted two interns one summer, and 
sometimes we did leave isolated tasks that they could take on and 
fix independently.  However, the code is reviewed by the people 
hosting them and the review process is supposed to be very 
exhaustive.  That means that the full-time developers are not off 
the hook either, it's their responsibility to review code even 
the code written by interns.
Mar 04 2020
prev sibling next sibling parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 So of course this is just a stupid playlist at youtube, i.e a 
 Google company.
 But what you get every day by overpaid enginneers is that.


It's the same with Microsoft, they're screwing the e-mail.

Example: Before when you would delete an e-mail, you had an 
option to delete it permanently through the UI using: "Shift + 
Del", it would show a message/warning about this and if you agree 
it was done and  the message would be deleted.

But then they created "Recovery Item"! - So you do the same steps 
like above, it shows the warning that the message will be delete 
permanently but guess what, it goes to a folder called Recovery 
Items, so now you need to delete the e-mail twice.

By the way if just delete an e-mail through the UI without using 
Shift you need to delete 3 times to get rid of, from: Inbox 
Folder, Deleted Folder and finally Recovery Items Folder.

And there is no way to avoid Recovery Folder, there is no option 
to disable this "feature".

Well the above is deleting through the UI, but when using an 
e-mail client like Thunderbird for example, the deleted message 
will go to Recovery Items and there is NO way to map this folder, 
so for 30 days (Default) the message will be in you e-mail like 
it or not, otherwise you need to go through the UI and do this 
manually.

It's just a shame.

Matheus.
Mar 03 2020
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 01:19:44PM +0000, matheus via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 It's the same with Microsoft, they're screwing the e-mail.


[...]

 It's just a shame.


[...]

Just use Mutt[1]. :-D

[1] http://www.mutt.org/


T

-- 
Windows 95 was a joke, and Windows 98 was the punchline.
Mar 03 2020
parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 17:34:37 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 01:19:44PM +0000, matheus via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]

 It's the same with Microsoft, they're screwing the e-mail.


 [...]

 It's just a shame.


 [...]

 Just use Mutt[1]. :-D

 [1] http://www.mutt.org/


But how the e-mail client will solve the problem in the e-mail 
server/service? Because the retention happens in the server, the 
client can't do nothing or can?

I've tried 3 e-mail clients (Even Outlook) and all keep sending 
any deleted e-mail to Recover Folder which is unmapped by any 
client.

One thing that I just remembered, this problem with Recover 
deleted items is pretty old, and here is someone complaining a 
year ago:

https://outlook.uservoice.com/forums/601444-the-new-outlook-com/suggestions/37583596-option-to-disable-recover-deleted-items

The answer from David Los - Microsoft Outlook (Product Manager, 
Outlook.com):

"Hi there, thank you for the feedback. I just wanted to let you 
know that if you select all of the messages in your deleted items 
folder and hold down shift and the delete button on your keyboard 
the items will be permanently deleted and not going into the 
Dumpster/Recover deleted items experience."

Unfortunately the Product Manager is totally wrong because this 
doesn't work at all, I have tried in Inbox Folder, Trash Folder 
and it always end up into Recover Deleted Items Folder.

But even it worked, it would requires 2 steps to delete an 
e-mail, from Inbox and then Trash Folder, which before this 
nonsense was introduced was simple and worked.

And I will skip the blocking e-mail feature that just doesn't 
work at all, and a lot of people complains:

https://outlook.uservoice.com/forums/601444-the-new-outlook-com/suggestions/38434351-blocked-email-selected-not-being-blocked

I like this comment: "big computer company can't even handle 
blocking e-mails".

Just a pity,

Matheus.
Mar 03 2020
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 06:14:27PM +0000, matheus via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 17:34:37 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 01:19:44PM +0000, matheus via Digitalmars-d
 wrote: [...]

 It's the same with Microsoft, they're screwing the e-mail.


 [...]

 It's just a shame.


 [...]
 
 Just use Mutt[1]. :-D
 
 [1] http://www.mutt.org/


 
 But how the e-mail client will solve the problem in the e-mail
 server/service? Because the retention happens in the server, the
 client can't do nothing or can?


[...]

Ohhh, your server is Outlook?  Well, then, you're screwed. :-P  If you
have the choice, use a different mail server instead. :-P

Currently I run my own mailserver, and I configured it to deliver
directly to my PC, and Mutt accesses the local mailbox directly. Once I
delete something, it's GONE.  For good.  I have full control over what
happens to my mail, and I get to decide what I do with it, where it
goes, and how it's stored.

This modern idiom of the server retaining all messages your behalf is
IMNSHO a b0rken model.  It takes control out of users' hands into the
mail admin's hands. It's the same thing with trend everywhere else, like
web apps taking control of your data out of your hands into the app
writer's server, and cloud services taking control of your data *and*
your applications out of your hands into *theirs*.  It's convenient, no
doubt, and in many scenarios more economical.  But there is a
fundamentally b0rken principle here, that you no longer own anything,
not your data, not your programs, your provider controls everything. You
no longer *own* anything, you're merely a "subscriber" and the service
provider controls everything.  Just the way large corporations like it.
Rather than empowering the user, they empower themselves.  And at last,
the threat of users taking control of their own property is neutralized,
and the big corporations can continue to hold you in their thrall.

But hey, this is the hot bandwagon and everyone's jumping on it, so why
aren't you following the rest of the herd?  And so, this b0rken design
perpetuates itself.


T

-- 
What's an anagram of "BANACH-TARSKI"?  BANACH-TARSKI BANACH-TARSKI.
Mar 03 2020
next sibling parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 18:30:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 06:14:27PM +0000, matheus via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 17:34:37 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 01:19:44PM +0000, matheus via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]

 It's the same with Microsoft, they're screwing the e-mail.


 [...]

 It's just a shame.


 [...]
 
 Just use Mutt[1]. :-D
 
 [1] http://www.mutt.org/


 
 But how the e-mail client will solve the problem in the e-mail 
 server/service? Because the retention happens in the server, 
 the client can't do nothing or can?


 [...]

 Ohhh, your server is Outlook?  Well, then, you're screwed. :-P  
 If you have the choice, use a different mail server instead. :-P


Yes, in fact I have another e-mail and this one is just an old 
e-mail (since hotmail days) that I keep because I still have some 
friends attached to it.


 Currently I run my own mailserver, and I configured it to 
 deliver directly to my PC, and Mutt accesses the local mailbox 
 directly. Once I delete something, it's GONE.  For good.  I 
 have full control over what happens to my mail, and I get to 
 decide what I do with it, where it goes, and how it's stored.


2 questions:

1) Don't you have any problems with spam filters from other 
services?

2) It's a cloud service or your own server in your house? If the 
later how you manage reliability?


 This modern idiom of the server retaining all messages your 
 behalf is IMNSHO a b0rken model.  It takes control out of 
 users' hands into the mail admin's hands. It's the same thing 
 with trend everywhere else, like web apps taking control of 
 your data out of your hands into the app writer's server, and 
 cloud services taking control of your data *and* your 
 applications out of your hands into *theirs*.  It's convenient, 
 no doubt, and in many scenarios more economical.  But there is 
 a fundamentally b0rken principle here, that you no longer own 
 anything, not your data, not your programs, your provider 
 controls everything. You no longer *own* anything, you're 
 merely a "subscriber" and the service provider controls 
 everything.  Just the way large corporations like it. Rather 
 than empowering the user, they empower themselves.  And at 
 last, the threat of users taking control of their own property 
 is neutralized, and the big corporations can continue to hold 
 you in their thrall.

 But hey, this is the hot bandwagon and everyone's jumping on 
 it, so why aren't you following the rest of the herd?  And so, 
 this b0rken design perpetuates itself.


Yes that's true, this model is really broken, but the problem is, 
having your own e-mail service may be target as spam for other 
services and need to be 24/7.

Matheus.
Mar 03 2020
next sibling parent reply sarn <sarn theartofmachinery.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 20:20:25 UTC, matheus wrote:

 2 questions:


Not H. S. Teoh, but I also run a mailserver.


 1) Don't you have any problems with spam filters from other 
 services?


Google was okay as long as I ticked enough boxes here:
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en

Microsoft (and a few other services) put more weight on IP 
reputation.  At first I'd sometimes get a rejection email back 
when I sent an email to an address managed by them, but the 
rejection email had a link to some site where I could jump 
through some CAPTCHA hoops to allow my email to get sent.  
Servers seem to trust me now but I can't remember how long it 
took.

Don't bother running a mailserver on an IP with a trashed 
reputation (e.g., IPs from AWS EC2 or one of the cheap cloud 
providers).  Some providers (like Google Cloud) block email 
ports, anyway.


 Yes that's true, this model is really broken, but the problem 
 is, having your own e-mail service may be target as spam for 
 other services and need to be 24/7.


Spam isn't as much of a problem as I expected.  I've had about 
two outright spam emails in nearly five years on my main server.  
Most spam I get is from people who get my business card and 
"helpfully" sign me up to their newsletters, or people emailing 
me because of my blog and asking me to link to unrelated websites 
they have.  Stuff that I'd get with a bigger service, anyway, and 
is easy to deal with.  I guess it's just not economical to spam 
some nerd's private mailserver with ads.

Reliability is a more important problem.  Email's pretty robust 
thanks to mail queues and retries, so a mailserver doesn't need 
to be up 24/7, but the fact is if it goes down it stays down 
until you fix it.  It's rare but can happen at a bad time.  I pay 
an uptime service to alert me if my mailserver goes down (same as 
everything else I run).
Mar 03 2020
next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 09:29:11PM +0000, sarn via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 Spam isn't as much of a problem as I expected.  I've had about two
 outright spam emails in nearly five years on my main server.


You're lucky.  I have a couple of public-facing email addresses, mainly
from open source contributions, and over the years those addresses have
ended up on countless spamlists.  Now I regularly get hundreds of spams
a day.  Fortunately, I hardly actually see any of them, because I have 4
layers of spam filters: SpamAssassin + Bogofilter on my mailserver, and
another SpamAssassin + Bogofilter on my local mailserver.

They are actually not completely redundant, because the SA + BF on the
mailserver is trained on spams that are received directly, whereas the
local filters are trained on the remnant of spam that makes it past the
first two layers, so they catch what the first two layers failed to
catch.  Spams with a high enough cumulative score get blackholed; spams
with iffy scores are saved in a spambox that I clean out every couple o'
months or so.  Over the years, there have been very few false positives,
so I've been reducing the minimum score. Now I hardly see any spam out
of what must be hundreds impinging my mailserver every day. When they do
show up, it tends to be very few and easy to just delete and forget.



 Most spam I get is from people who get my business card and
 "helpfully" sign me up to their newsletters, or people emailing me
 because of my blog and asking me to link to unrelated websites they
 have.  Stuff that I'd get with a bigger service, anyway, and is easy
 to deal with.  I guess it's just not economical to spam some nerd's
 private mailserver with ads.


Most of the spam I get is actually not ads (which I hardly get much of,
'cos I generally don't give out real email addresses for stuff unless
it's actually something I care about), but scams (mainly the Nigerian
419 variety), phishing attempts, and malware attachments.

One thing I've learned over the years is that spammers don't actually
care about their target audience (what a concept! :-P); their goal is to
hit as many email addresses as possible to increase the response rate up
to the profitable level. For this purpose, they purchase spamlists on
the black market, and acquire a botnet or two to spam every email on
those lists indiscriminately. Basically, a wide scattershot in the hope
that something would stick.  Sad to say, given the reported email scam
incident counts on various sources, something *does* stick.  When they
have millions of addresses on their lists, all it takes is for 0.01% to
respond and they've already made their profit margin.

And most people don't realize that the absolute worst thing to do is to
reply to spams in any way, even if it's to yell abuse at them, or to
click on so-called "unsubscribe" buttons: many unsubscribe buttons are
fake; all they do is to flag your email address as "valid" and post it
to 50 other spamlists. Replying has the same effect. As with internet
trolls, the best response is not to play.



 Reliability is a more important problem.  Email's pretty robust thanks
 to mail queues and retries, so a mailserver doesn't need to be up
 24/7, but the fact is if it goes down it stays down until you fix it.
 It's rare but can happen at a bad time.  I pay an uptime service to
 alert me if my mailserver goes down (same as everything else I run).


The only time my mailserver goes down is either the VPS died, or I
screwed up a mailserver upgrade. The latter is pretty obvious, and can
be fixed right away.  The former involves an email to tech support, and
generally things come back up within a reasonable amount of time.


T

-- 
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will
eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.  Now, thanks to the
Internet, we know this is not true. -- Robert Wilensk
Mar 03 2020
prev sibling parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 21:29:11 UTC, sarn wrote:

 Reliability is a more important problem.  Email's pretty robust 
 thanks to mail queues and retries, so a mailserver doesn't need 
 to be up 24/7, but the fact is if it goes down it stays down 
 until you fix it.  It's rare but can happen at a bad time.  I 
 pay an uptime service to alert me if my mailserver goes down 
 (same as everything else I run).


Do you mind to share your VPS service name?

Matheus.
Mar 04 2020
parent sarn <sarn theartofmachinery.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 March 2020 at 20:02:58 UTC, matheus wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 21:29:11 UTC, sarn wrote:

 Reliability is a more important problem.  Email's pretty 
 robust thanks to mail queues and retries, so a mailserver 
 doesn't need to be up 24/7, but the fact is if it goes down it 
 stays down until you fix it.  It's rare but can happen at a 
 bad time.  I pay an uptime service to alert me if my 
 mailserver goes down (same as everything else I run).


 Do you mind to share your VPS service name?

 Matheus.


The server's on Linode.
Mar 05 2020
prev sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 08:20:25PM +0000, matheus via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 18:30:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:


[...]

 Currently I run my own mailserver, and I configured it to deliver
 directly to my PC, and Mutt accesses the local mailbox directly.
 Once I delete something, it's GONE.  For good.  I have full control
 over what happens to my mail, and I get to decide what I do with it,
 where it goes, and how it's stored.


 
 2 questions:
 
 1) Don't you have any problems with spam filters from other services?


Occasionally, but if you setup your MX records properly, it should work
fine.  Unless you're dealing with unreasonable services that blacklist
everything except gmail.com, hotmail.com, and yahoo.com, then you're
screwed. But then, if you have to deal with unreasonable services of
that sort, then you're *already* screwed in other ways.



 2) It's a cloud service or your own server in your house? If the later
 how you manage reliability?


I have a 24/7 VPS that serves as an intermediate MX that forwards mail
to my home PC server.  The latter I usually leave running, but on the
occasion it goes down, the VPS server retains the mails and delivers
them when I come back up. No problem with reliability there.



 This modern idiom of the server retaining all messages your behalf
 is IMNSHO a b0rken model.




[...]

 Yes that's true, this model is really broken, but the problem is,
 having your own e-mail service may be target as spam for other
 services and need to be 24/7.


[...]

Usually all it takes is to setup proper SPF records on your domain, and
most services should work.

As for being 24/7, since I already use the VPS for other purposes (to
host websites, etc.), email is just another service tacked on top of
that.  The nice thing about this is having full control over what
software runs on my {website, email, etc.}.  Cost-wise it's not too bad,
considering how many things I can run on it.


T

-- 
English has the lovely word "defenestrate", meaning "to execute by throwing
someone out a window", or more recently "to remove Windows from a computer and
replace it with something useful". :-) -- John Cowan
Mar 03 2020
parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 21:41:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I have a 24/7 VPS that serves as an intermediate MX that 
 forwards mail to my home PC server.  The latter I usually leave 
 running, but on the occasion it goes down, the VPS server 
 retains the mails and delivers them when I come back up. No 
 problem with reliability there.


I'm interesting in this. Do you mind to share you VPS service 
name?

Matheus.
Mar 04 2020
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:01:53PM +0000, matheus via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 21:41:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I have a 24/7 VPS that serves as an intermediate MX that forwards
 mail to my home PC server.  The latter I usually leave running, but
 on the occasion it goes down, the VPS server retains the mails and
 delivers them when I come back up. No problem with reliability
 there.


 
 I'm interesting in this. Do you mind to share you VPS service name?


[...]

johncompanies.com

They have a discount if you contribute to an open source project. Keep
in mind that the VPS packages they offer are geared towards servers, so
if the only thing you're going to be using it for is mail, it might be
overkill (and likely too pricey). But it's worthwhile if you'll be
running other things on it besides just a mailserver.


T

-- 
All men are mortal. Socrates is mortal. Therefore all men are Socrates.
Mar 04 2020
parent matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 March 2020 at 20:41:25 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:01:53PM +0000, matheus via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 21:41:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I have a 24/7 VPS that serves as an intermediate MX that 
 forwards mail to my home PC server.  The latter I usually 
 leave running, but on the occasion it goes down, the VPS 
 server retains the mails and delivers them when I come back 
 up. No problem with reliability there.


 
 I'm interesting in this. Do you mind to share you VPS service 
 name?


 [...]

 johncompanies.com

 They have a discount if you contribute to an open source 
 project. Keep in mind that the VPS packages they offer are 
 geared towards servers, so if the only thing you're going to be 
 using it for is mail, it might be overkill (and likely too 
 pricey). But it's worthwhile if you'll be running other things 
 on it besides just a mailserver.


I'll take a look about this and see if I can do it myself. :)

Thank you very much for all the info.

Matheus.
Mar 04 2020
prev sibling parent reply Rumbu <rumbu rumbu.ro> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 18:30:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

  But there is a fundamentally b0rken principle here, that you 
 no longer own anything, not your data, not your programs, your 
 provider controls everything. You no longer *own* anything, 
 you're merely a "subscriber"


That's because usually, it's the company/university/third party 
that provides you these services. From the other side of the 
fence I am happy that I can set a ridiculous retention period 
making your "delete" action completely useless. I can even let 
you press Shift-Delete if that makes you feel good.

I have seen too many times people lie and pretend to be victim of 
things that never happened. Living in an era where nearly 
everything has a written e-mail/conversation behind it, it's very 
simple to counter any misbehaviour of users.

For personal use, you can set up in your basement your e-mail 
server in minutes, but as long as you use a resource payed and 
maintained by a third party, I don't find any abuse if that third 
party manages that resource how suits it best.

The same about people complaining about Facebook selling your 
data. I survived without a Facebook account and I'm in my 40-ies.

Subscription is an option. You can setup your gig anytime in your 
nice data room like in old days or you can find something 
between, e.g. a private cloud. But as long as you pay 10 or 0 
bucks on a fully fledged server with 99% uptime, you must give 
something in return. Your privacy, your ownership or your pinky 
sometimes :) Freedom and independence are not for free.
Mar 03 2020
parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 09:04:49PM +0000, Rumbu via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 18:30:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 But there is a fundamentally b0rken principle here, that you no
 longer own anything, not your data, not your programs, your provider
 controls everything. You no longer *own* anything, you're merely a
 "subscriber"


 
 That's because usually, it's the company/university/third party that
 provides you these services. From the other side of the fence I am
 happy that I can set a ridiculous retention period making your
 "delete" action completely useless. I can even let you press
 Shift-Delete if that makes you feel good.


And that's why I run my own services myself. :-P



 I have seen too many times people lie and pretend to be victim of
 things that never happened. Living in an era where nearly everything
 has a written e-mail/conversation behind it, it's very simple to
 counter any misbehaviour of users.


Most people are totally clueless and lack common sense when it comes to
posting things online.  They don't understand that old saying, that once
it's online, you will never, ever, be able to delete it.  *Somebody*,
*somewhere*, likely already has a copy of it archived somewhere, and --
even though realistically speaking it's rare -- one day might come back
to bite you when you least expect it.  If you're not comfortable with
information XYZ being essentially public and read by people you don't
know, don't post it online in the first place!!



 For personal use, you can set up in your basement your e-mail server
 in minutes, but as long as you use a resource payed and maintained by
 a third party, I don't find any abuse if that third party manages that
 resource how suits it best.


I don't call it abuse.  I call it the provider empowering itself vs.
empowering the user.  If you signed up for the service and signed the
contract, then it's your own responsibility for the consequences. I
choose not to sign up for the service if it does not empower me.



 The same about people complaining about Facebook selling your data. I
 survived without a Facebook account and I'm in my 40-ies.


Me too. :-P  I almost signed up for Facebook once, well actually, twice;
the first time I read the privacy policy and went, Nope.  The second
time I thought, what's the harm if I never post private information and
just use fake personal details to open an account? -- but then they
require a real phone number.  I was not about to go get a throwaway
phone number just to be able to get a lousy Facebook account, so I said,
Nope.  And never looked back.

The kind of stuff people post on FB is seriously scary.  Personal
details, detailed itineraries of upcoming vacation trips (hello, Mr.
Robber, would you like to rob my house this weekend?), with absolutely
no sense whatsoever that this is all out there for people -- *anyone* --
to read.  And of course, Big Brother FB collecting information about you
in the background and doing who-knows-what with that information.

I mean, I'm not crazy paranoid, there's some info about myself that I
honestly couldn't care less if everyone knows about it.  But I'd rather
be the one deciding what that info is, rather than posting *everything*
online for who knows what kind of online weirdo to read (and act on).



 Subscription is an option. You can setup your gig anytime in your nice
 data room like in old days or you can find something between, e.g. a
 private cloud. But as long as you pay 10 or 0 bucks on a fully fledged
 server with 99% uptime, you must give something in return. Your
 privacy, your ownership or your pinky sometimes :) Freedom and
 independence are not for free.


[...]

I don't mind paying for a service where the provider lets me control my
data and my services.  I don't bother paying for services where they
dictate what I can use, how I should use it, and when I can access it.

It's like using an open source OS vs. a closed source one.  I choose to
use an OS that lets me configure how it works, and make changes if/when
I want to (even if generally I stay with the defaults), rather than an
OS where the hood is welded shut, and I have no control over how it
works, and even where a remote entity decides when and how to upgrade
it.  No thanks, I prefer to update when *I* choose to, and *know* what
the heck I'm getting into before installing some dubious "patch" that
could suddenly break the way I currently work (*cough*Windows
10*ahem*forced upgrade*cough*).

Some services offer a high degree of customization, and I'm OK with
that.  But if I can't configure it to work the way I want, if there are
artificial barriers introduced for external, unrelated reasons where
there's no *technical* reason why something shouldn't be allowed, then
seriously it's just not worth my time and money. I'll take my business
elsewhere, thank you very much.


T

-- 
Дерево держится корнями, а человек -
друзьями.
Mar 03 2020
prev sibling next sibling parent Martin Brezel <martin.brzenska googlemail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 at 00:59:44 UTC, Basile B. wrote:


 fucking overpaid web developpers


Web Developers - especially those with fancy mustaches, ey..
Mar 03 2020
prev sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
I don't think Google ever bragged about its frontend devs. Also 
major companies are major outsourcers :)
Mar 04 2020