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digitalmars.D - D Online Presence

reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.

Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
blessings, naturally). Walter would have the final say for what happens
on this site, but the community could provide more content and present
it well while freeing up Walter's time to work on the language.

I have made a template layout, and would like to donate it to the D
cause. I hope I'm not being pretentious when I assume that with a little
bit of polish, this layout will be good enough to represent D online.

http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


Walter, what do you think about this?


Anyone interested in helping, anyone with criticism/suggestions, etc, I
would like to hear from you.

Some of the immediate questions that would need to be answered are:
 - Walter's blessing (after all, we can't be "official" without that)
 - reliable hosting
 - new wiki (wiki4d has good content, do we have permission to use it?)
 - content: wiki content, tutorials for D, library reference; a lot of
it exists but we need to bring it to one place with permission
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
 drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
 D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
 specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.
 
 Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
 and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
 one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
 blessings, naturally).


What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


 Walter would have the final say for what happens
 on this site, but the community could provide more content and present
 it well while freeing up Walter's time to work on the language.
 
 I have made a template layout, and would like to donate it to the D
 cause. I hope I'm not being pretentious when I assume that with a little
 bit of polish, this layout will be good enough to represent D online.
 
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


This shows a lot of promise. A couple nits:

1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.

2) it uses javascript to change the look when a mouse is over something, 
can the style sheet 'hover' thing be used instead?


 
 Walter, what do you think about this?
 
 
 Anyone interested in helping, anyone with criticism/suggestions, etc, I
 would like to hear from you.
 
 Some of the immediate questions that would need to be answered are:
  - Walter's blessing (after all, we can't be "official" without that)
  - reliable hosting
  - new wiki (wiki4d has good content, do we have permission to use it?)
  - content: wiki content, tutorials for D, library reference; a lot of
 it exists but we need to bring it to one place with permission
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
 drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
 D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
 specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.

 Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
 and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
 one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
 blessings, naturally).


 
 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


I think nick is concerned about D seeming like a hobby of Digital Mars 
rathan than a significant language in its own right. I think it's a 
valid point.

It looks good when a language has an official (or official-looking) 
website. Such as these examples for some other languages:

http://www.java.com/
http://www.php.net/
http://www.python.org/
http://www.ruby-lang.org/
http://www.perl.org/ / http://www.perl.com

-- 
jcc7
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


 
 I think nick is concerned about D seeming like a hobby of Digital Mars 
 rathan than a significant language in its own right. I think it's a 
 valid point.
 
 It looks good when a language has an official (or official-looking) 
 website. Such as these examples for some other languages:
 
 http://www.java.com/
 http://www.php.net/
 http://www.python.org/
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/
 http://www.perl.org/ / http://www.perl.com


www.d.com is already taken :-(
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


 
 I think nick is concerned about D seeming like a hobby of Digital Mars
 rathan than a significant language in its own right. I think it's a
 valid point.
 
 It looks good when a language has an official (or official-looking)
 website. Such as these examples for some other languages:
 
 http://www.java.com/
 http://www.php.net/
 http://www.python.org/
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/
 http://www.perl.org/ / http://www.perl.com


 
 www.d.com is already taken :-(


Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 www.d.com is already taken :-(


 
 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.


It's a squatter with a "make offer".
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply xs0 <xs0 xs0.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
 

 Walter Bright wrote:


 www.d.com is already taken :-(



 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.


 
 
 It's a squatter with a "make offer".


how about d-lang.com/net/org ? Dotster says it's available...


xs0
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
xs0 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 www.d.com is already taken :-(



 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.



 It's a squatter with a "make offer".


 
 how about d-lang.com/net/org ? Dotster says it's available...


That's a leading contender.
May 06 2006
parent reply "Chris Miller" <chris dprogramming.com> writes:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 19:09:41 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:


 xs0 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 www.d.com is already taken :-(



 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.



 It's a squatter with a "make offer".


  how about d-lang.com/net/org ? Dotster says it's available...


 That's a leading contender.


I don't particularly like dashes in domains. I do like dlanguage.com -  
it's available.
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Chris Miller wrote:

 On Sat, 06 May 2006 19:09:41 -0400, Walter Bright 
 <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:
 

 xs0 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:


 www.d.com is already taken :-(



 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.



 It's a squatter with a "make offer".


  how about d-lang.com/net/org ? Dotster says it's available...


 That's a leading contender.


 
 I don't particularly like dashes in domains.


I have reservations about it, too. I also have reservations about 
abbreviations.


 I do like dlanguage.com - it's available.


Hmm <g>
May 06 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Chris Miller wrote:

 On Sat, 06 May 2006 19:09:41 -0400, Walter Bright
 <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote:


 xs0 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:










We could ask for donations. If everyone on the newsgroups throws in a
couple of dollars, we can easily buy d.org and keep renewing it. I think
that would be quite good.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 www.d.com is already taken :-(


 Not taken, reserved I think. Together with all other letters it seems.


 
 It's a squatter with a "make offer".


IMHO, a one letter web site is impractical.
The site name sort-of drowns into the urls.
May 07 2006
prev sibling parent me <me_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3isr6$op1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter Bright says...

Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


 
 I think nick is concerned about D seeming like a hobby of Digital Mars 
 rathan than a significant language in its own right. I think it's a 
 valid point.
 
 It looks good when a language has an official (or official-looking) 
 website. Such as these examples for some other languages:
 
 http://www.java.com/
 http://www.php.net/
 http://www.python.org/
 http://www.ruby-lang.org/
 http://www.perl.org/ / http://www.perl.com


www.d.com is already taken :-(


But neither www.d-lang.org or www.dlang.org are taken, both of which are viable
options.
May 06 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:



 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


Do you mean the domain name or the site itself? I suppose the best
domain name would be www.d.org but I'm sure it's taken;
digitalmars.com/d is good enough as it is a top hit on google already.

The site itself looks a bit outdated(layout/style-wise); thus my effort
with the new layout. In addition, it would be nice if you hosted a wiki
there(there are many options here, Mediawiki isn't necessarily the best
choice).

Finally, I think the front page for the official D website could borrow
some ideas from here: http://rubyonrails.org/
Specifically, I the big 4 todo items.



 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 
 This shows a lot of promise. A couple nits:
 
 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


I will create a stylesheet that resizes the layout with window size.

At the moment, the width is locked on purpose. It prevents people from
making the site too wide and resulting in a difficult read (the ideal
width for reading is 60-80 characters/line). You can change the size of
the site by changing the font size(Ctrl-wheel or Ctrl-0/-/+ in firefox).


 2) it uses javascript to change the look when a mouse is over something,
 can the style sheet 'hover' thing be used instead?


It doesn't, actually. It uses hover to change the appearance. It uses
javascript to disable an outline that firefox draws around the tabs when
you click on them. It is somewhat of a hack, which can easily be removed.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


 Do you mean the domain name or the site itself?


The name. I poked around with some other names, but they're either 
already taken or just aren't that good.


 I suppose the best
 domain name would be www.d.org but I'm sure it's taken;
 digitalmars.com/d is good enough as it is a top hit on google already.
 
 The site itself looks a bit outdated(layout/style-wise); thus my effort
 with the new layout.


I understand, and I agree it can be improved. But I do like the spare, 
utilitarian look & feel.


 In addition, it would be nice if you hosted a wiki
 there(there are many options here, Mediawiki isn't necessarily the best
 choice).


I haven't done so already because of the numerous existing D wiki's.


 Finally, I think the front page for the official D website could borrow
 some ideas from here: http://rubyonrails.org/
 Specifically, I the big 4 todo items.


Some ideas, ok, but I don't like the look & feel of it. Too much 
whitespace, too little content, doesn't adjust to the screen size. Your 
template is much better.



 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 This shows a lot of promise. A couple nits:

 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


 I will create a stylesheet that resizes the layout with window size.
 
 At the moment, the width is locked on purpose. It prevents people from
 making the site too wide and resulting in a difficult read (the ideal
 width for reading is 60-80 characters/line).


It's a lot harder to read when one has to use the scroll bar to read 
every line. Some readers don't have the option of setting the ideal 
width, and some readers might want the D reference manual in a smaller 
window so they have room for their code. The user should control the 
width, not the site designer.


 You can change the size of
 the site by changing the font size(Ctrl-wheel or Ctrl-0/-/+ in firefox).


True, but this is asking too much. People are used to controlling the 
size by dragging the window border, not the font.


 2) it uses javascript to change the look when a mouse is over something,
 can the style sheet 'hover' thing be used instead?


 It doesn't, actually. It uses hover to change the appearance. It uses
 javascript to disable an outline that firefox draws around the tabs when
 you click on them. It is somewhat of a hack, which can easily be removed.


Ok, I just think that the use of javascript should be minimized, because 
many have js disabled for security reasons. Yes, I know the current 
pages use a bit of js for the search box and the google ads.
May 06 2006
parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 I understand, and I agree it can be improved. But I do like the spare, 
 utilitarian look & feel.


No offense, but it still could look professional. (I don't care, but 
we're obviously talking about First Impressions of Newcomers.) :-)

It can be spartan, archaic, minimalistic, utilitarian, functionalist, 
whatever -- but a Professional Look is orthogonal to those attributes.


(

Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... eh, 
well, like a case in point.

Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it 
to fit the favicon.ico?

)
May 07 2006
next sibling parent Olaf Pohlmann <op nospam.org> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 It can be spartan, archaic, minimalistic, utilitarian, functionalist, 
 whatever -- but a Professional Look is orthogonal to those attributes.


"Professional" isn't an indicator of quality but only that someone earns 
money with it (or tries to). The success of Google has shown that you 
still can make an impact if you focus on quality instead of what is 
considered "professional". Most "professional" sites suck hard. In my 
opinion many more sites should look and feel like the unprofessional 
http://sqlite.org/  It's about the first impression, as you said.


op
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 


...snip...

 (
 
 Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... eh, 
 well, like a case in point.
 
 Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it 
 to fit the favicon.ico?
 
 )


I agree that a more appropriate icon could help. I suggest using the 
attached icon instead (which I created) or something similar.

-- 
jcc7
May 07 2006
prev sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:


 (
 
 Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... eh,
 well, like a case in point.
 
 Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it
 to fit the favicon.ico?
 
 )


I liked Justin's favicon (very simple, very to the point). I just
thought it could use some AA. =)
May 07 2006
parent reply jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3mlq9$22mo$1 digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Georg Wrede wrote:


 (
 
 Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... eh,
 well, like a case in point.
 
 Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it
 to fit the favicon.ico?
 
 )


I liked Justin's favicon (very simple, very to the point). I just
thought it could use some AA. =)


I'm sure that someone else (probably many someone elses) can come up with a
better icon for this than I could (and if we're lucky, many such icons will be
donated to the cause). 

What does "AA" stand for? Black background? I intended for mine to have a
transparent background, since that seems to be what most favicons do.

jcc7
May 08 2006
parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
jcc7 wrote:

 In article <e3mlq9$22mo$1 digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...

 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Georg Wrede wrote:


 (

 Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... eh,
 well, like a case in point.

 Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it
 to fit the favicon.ico?

 )


 I liked Justin's favicon (very simple, very to the point). I just
 thought it could use some AA. =)


 
 I'm sure that someone else (probably many someone elses) can come up with a
 better icon for this than I could (and if we're lucky, many such icons will be
 donated to the cause). 
 
 What does "AA" stand for? Black background? I intended for mine to have a
 transparent background, since that seems to be what most favicons do.
 
 jcc7



Justin, I think he means Anti-Aliasing.

-JJR
May 08 2006
parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
John Reimer wrote:

 jcc7 wrote:

 In article <e3mlq9$22mo$1 digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...

 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
 --------------040005080101010903040202
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Georg Wrede wrote:


 (

 Case in point: the favicon.ico file on digitalmars.com looks just... 
 eh,
 well, like a case in point.

 Why not take the red graphic from the Digital Mars logo, and resize it
 to fit the favicon.ico?

 )


 I liked Justin's favicon (very simple, very to the point). I just
 thought it could use some AA. =)


 I'm sure that someone else (probably many someone elses) can come up 
 with a
 better icon for this than I could (and if we're lucky, many such icons 
 will be
 donated to the cause).
 What does "AA" stand for? Black background? I intended for mine to have a
 transparent background, since that seems to be what most favicons do.

 jcc7


 
 
 Justin, I think he means Anti-Aliasing.
 
 -JJR


Now, I feel dumb. ;)

Oh, that must be what he meant, though I'd rather anti-alias against a 
transparent background than a black background (if that makes any sense).

The first "AA" that I thought of was Alcoholics Anonymous (which made no 
sense).

I did a little web search, but I quit looking after the first page:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=AA

I didn't think that "American Airlines" made any more sense. Finally, I 
decided that he meant "Affirmative Action". So I decided he found my 
"albino" background offensive and preferred to have a darker background.


-- 
jcc7
May 09 2006
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:

 Justin, I think he means Anti-Aliasing.

 -JJR


 
 Now, I feel dumb. ;)
 
 Oh, that must be what he meant, though I'd rather anti-alias against a 
 transparent background than a black background (if that makes any sense).
 
 The first "AA" that I thought of was Alcoholics Anonymous (which made no 
 sense).
 
 I did a little web search, but I quit looking after the first page:
 http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=AA
 
 I didn't think that "American Airlines" made any more sense. Finally, I 
 decided that he meant "Affirmative Action". So I decided he found my 
 "albino" background offensive and preferred to have a darker background.
 
 



lol

:D

-JJR
May 10 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Gregor Richards <Richards codu.org> writes:
nick wrote:

 I suppose the best
 domain name would be www.d.org but I'm sure it's taken;


Actually, one-letter domain names aren't valid, except for those that 
got grandfather-claused in like x.org.

  - Gregor Richards
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 2) it uses javascript to change the look when a mouse is over
 something, can the style sheet 'hover' thing be used instead?


 
 It doesn't, actually. It uses hover to change the appearance. It uses
  javascript to disable an outline that firefox draws around the tabs
 when you click on them. It is somewhat of a hack, which can easily be
 removed.


Those outlines are very handy!

First of all, tabbing actually is a good option in some situations (bad 
mouse, no mouse, or laptop in awkward place).

Second, I regularly open new tabs or new windows, instead of just 
clicking. (Especially when I want to do breadth-first browsing, which is 
practical on a new (to me new, that is) web site. Later coming back to 
the page I instantly can see where I was!
May 07 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 2) it uses javascript to change the look when a mouse is over
 something, can the style sheet 'hover' thing be used instead?


 It doesn't, actually. It uses hover to change the appearance. It uses
  javascript to disable an outline that firefox draws around the tabs
 when you click on them. It is somewhat of a hack, which can easily be
 removed.


 
 Those outlines are very handy!
 
 First of all, tabbing actually is a good option in some situations (bad
 mouse, no mouse, or laptop in awkward place).
 
 Second, I regularly open new tabs or new windows, instead of just
 clicking. (Especially when I want to do breadth-first browsing, which is
 practical on a new (to me new, that is) web site. Later coming back to
 the page I instantly can see where I was!
 


I will take out the outline hack and sacrifice appearance for usability.
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


Is this better?
http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


 Ok, I just think that the use of javascript should be minimized, because many
have js disabled for security reasons.


So, I am leaving the tab-outline-hack in since it doesn't affect
functionality. Is that ok? It really doesn't affect appearance that much
either. Some readers earlier asked for it and then went and looked up
the hack for me =).

Regarding wikis:

 I haven't done so already because of the numerous existing D wiki's. 


I understand that there are lots out there. Having an official wiki
promotes the idea that D is a language that means business. It also
makes it easy for newcomers to dive right in. I think it would be great
if we just moved the content of wiki4d to your hosting w/ my new layout
and a new wiki engine. Ideally, the wiki would be integrated with the
official D site fairly seamlessly. I can read up on different wiki
engines and create a template that uses my layout. Then, all you'd have
to do is install that same wiki engine on your site and use my template.

Thoughts?
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


 Is this better?
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


Yes, much. But why does it stop reformatting below a certain size?


 Ok, I just think that the use of javascript should be minimized, because many
have js disabled for security reasons.


 So, I am leaving the tab-outline-hack in since it doesn't affect
 functionality. Is that ok?


It's ok as long as it still works if js is disabled.


 It really doesn't affect appearance that much
 either. Some readers earlier asked for it and then went and looked up
 the hack for me =).
 
 Regarding wikis:

 I haven't done so already because of the numerous existing D wiki's. 


 I understand that there are lots out there. Having an official wiki
 promotes the idea that D is a language that means business. It also
 makes it easy for newcomers to dive right in. I think it would be great
 if we just moved the content of wiki4d to your hosting w/ my new layout
 and a new wiki engine. Ideally, the wiki would be integrated with the
 official D site fairly seamlessly. I can read up on different wiki
 engines and create a template that uses my layout. Then, all you'd have
 to do is install that same wiki engine on your site and use my template.
 
 Thoughts?


It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


 Is this better?
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


 
 Yes, much. But why does it stop reformatting below a certain size?


Because below that size visual anomalies appear. If you don't care about
that we can remove the min-width restriction.


 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.


Sounds good to me. I'll get to work on that wiki research/layout.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 1) is it does not adjust when the window size is changed.


 Is this better?
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


 
 Yes, much. But why does it stop reformatting below a certain size?
 

 Ok, I just think that the use of javascript should be minimized, 
 because many have js disabled for security reasons.


 So, I am leaving the tab-outline-hack in since it doesn't affect
 functionality. Is that ok?


 
 It's ok as long as it still works if js is disabled.
 

 It really doesn't affect appearance that much
 either. Some readers earlier asked for it and then went and looked up
 the hack for me =).

 Regarding wikis:

 I haven't done so already because of the numerous existing D wiki's. 


 I understand that there are lots out there. Having an official wiki
 promotes the idea that D is a language that means business. It also
 makes it easy for newcomers to dive right in. I think it would be great
 if we just moved the content of wiki4d to your hosting w/ my new layout
 and a new wiki engine. Ideally, the wiki would be integrated with the
 official D site fairly seamlessly. I can read up on different wiki
 engines and create a template that uses my layout. Then, all you'd have
 to do is install that same wiki engine on your site and use my template.

 Thoughts?


 
 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.


Really, I don't see how it's my decision. I didn't establish Wiki4D. 
(That was Helmut Leitner.) I don't even host the wiki. (Again, that's 
Helmut Leitner.)

The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License 
(http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In 
short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your 
changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the 
details should be taken from the original document made available by the 
GNU organisation...".

I don't have an interest in studying all of the competing wiki systems 
(or even in learning how to markup text for a different wiki) and I 
don't want to convert the existing content to a new wiki style (and they 
all seem to have a subtlety different style). If Nick wants to do that 
fine, but he can't expect any help from me. Frankly, it sounds like a 
waste of time to me. The day that the new wiki goes live people will 
start complaining about the HTML that it generates or the color of the 
links or the programming language that the wiki runs on or the database 
the wiki is stored in. There's always going to be someone who's 
dissatisfied and offers to set up the wiki in yet another wiki system. 
And the content will need to be converted again.

-- 
jcc7
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:



 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.





 The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License
 (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In
 short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your
 changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the
 details should be taken from the original document made available by the
 GNU organisation...".


Fantastic; that's a green light for copying the content.



 I don't have an interest in studying all of the competing wiki systems
 (or even in learning how to markup text for a different wiki) and I
 don't want to convert the existing content to a new wiki style (and they
 all seem to have a subtlety different style). If Nick wants to do that
 fine, but he can't expect any help from me. Frankly, it sounds like a
 waste of time to me.


I simply asked my friends, who are web-gurus, regarding the choice of
wiki. I am not asking you to convert anything; I will do that myself (or
with a group effort involving several other enthusiasts).



 The day that the new wiki goes live people will
 start complaining about the HTML that it generates or the color of the
 links or the programming language that the wiki runs on or the database
 the wiki is stored in.


You can objectively say that one wiki is better than other by
considering facts. We need to choose one and go with it. Wiki4d has issues.


 There's always going to be someone who's
 dissatisfied and offers to set up the wiki in yet another wiki system.
 And the content will need to be converted again.


That's why there is going to be an official D wiki that everyone will
find when they google for D and hit digitalmars.com/d. All other wikis
will become secondary; especially because their content will have been
moved to the official D wiki.

The point is not to make all the existing D fans happy. The point is to
make D appear like a professional effort to create a new programming
language. At the moment doing a google search for D does not give you
that immediate impression. This is what I am aiming to fix. I think many
people on the newsgroup agree.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 

 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.






That should be Helmut!


 

 The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License
 (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In
 short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your
 changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the
 details should be taken from the original document made available by the
 GNU organisation...".


 
 Fantastic; that's a green light for copying the content.


True, but even so, Helmut has taken the initiative on it, done a lot of 
work on it, and deserves thanks and consideration regarding any changes.
May 06 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:



 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.






 
 That should be Helmut!
 

 The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License
 (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In
 short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your
 changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the
 details should be taken from the original document made available by the
 GNU organisation...".


 Fantastic; that's a green light for copying the content.


 
 True, but even so, Helmut has taken the initiative on it, done a lot of
 work on it, and deserves thanks and consideration regarding any changes.


Yes, despite being published under the free doc license, I would feel
much better about copying content if I had the authors' permissions.

I think Helmut feels very strongly about the wiki4d.
Apparently, prowiki is quite popular in Germany. It doesn't seem to show
up on wikipedia's wiki comparison chart though.

The following things matter in a wiki:
 - wiki engine must stack up well here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software

 - wiki engine must produces modern html

 - wiki's URL has to show that it's part of the official D site (e.g.
wiki.dprogramming.com or wiki.digitalmars.com)

 - wiki should look like the rest of the official D site.

 - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 True, but even so, Helmut has taken the initiative on it, done a lot of
 work on it, and deserves thanks and consideration regarding any changes.


 Yes, despite being published under the free doc license, I would feel
 much better about copying content if I had the authors' permissions.


Yes.


 I think Helmut feels very strongly about the wiki4d.
 Apparently, prowiki is quite popular in Germany. It doesn't seem to show
 up on wikipedia's wiki comparison chart though.
 
 The following things matter in a wiki:
  - wiki engine must stack up well here:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
 
  - wiki engine must produces modern html
 
  - wiki's URL has to show that it's part of the official D site (e.g.
 wiki.dprogramming.com or wiki.digitalmars.com)
 
  - wiki should look like the rest of the official D site.
 
  - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
 provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.


I agree as well. But also, although I can host the wiki, I am not the 
right person to be maintaining it. Any wiki solution must come with 
someone committed to keeping it working. That's the most important 
consideration.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:





 I agree as well. But also, although I can host the wiki, I am not the
 right person to be maintaining it. Any wiki solution must come with
 someone committed to keeping it working. That's the most important
 consideration.


Indeed, it has to be watched closely for vandalism and such. I believe
the community of trusted D fans can help with that. Alternatively, the
wiki can require that users have an account created for them by an
existing administrator; that way we don't need to worry about vandalism.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent BCS <BCS_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3jekl$1huo$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter Bright says...

nick wrote:


[...]

  - wiki's URL has to show that it's part of the official D site (e.g.
 wiki.dprogramming.com or wiki.digitalmars.com)




[...]

I agree as well. But also, although I can host the wiki, I am not the 
right person to be maintaining it. Any wiki solution must come with 
someone committed to keeping it working. That's the most important 
consideration.


can't you set XYZ.digitalmars.com to point to whatever you want? Pointing some
sub domains out to other servers would let other people manage parts of the
website.

Just a thought (and I can already think of a few small hitches in that Idea).
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:e3jc1v$1cm6$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
 provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.


PmWiki, which the DMedia site uses, does just that.  I'm not too 
knowledgeable with wikis, but it seems really well done.  Also, looking at 
the outputted HTML, it seems to use stylesheets and such, looks like modern 
HTML.
May 06 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:e3jc1v$1cm6$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
 provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.


 
 PmWiki, which the DMedia site uses, does just that.  I'm not too 
 knowledgeable with wikis, but it seems really well done.  Also, looking at 
 the outputted HTML, it seems to use stylesheets and such, looks like modern 
 HTML. 


MoinMoin has come with high recommendations. There are already modules
for highlighting Java code. Furthermore, D is easy to parse, so it
should be quite easy to write a code highlighting module.

Another good thing about MoinMoin is that Python code is much more
maintainable than PHP or Perl (MoinMoin uses Python).
May 06 2006
parent reply Brad Anderson <brad dsource.org> writes:
nick wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:e3jc1v$1cm6$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
 provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.


 PmWiki, which the DMedia site uses, does just that.  I'm not too 
 knowledgeable with wikis, but it seems really well done.  Also, looking at 
 the outputted HTML, it seems to use stylesheets and such, looks like modern 
 HTML. 


 
 MoinMoin has come with high recommendations. There are already modules
 for highlighting Java code. Furthermore, D is easy to parse, so it
 should be quite easy to write a code highlighting module.
 
 Another good thing about MoinMoin is that Python code is much more
 maintainable than PHP or Perl (MoinMoin uses Python).


Trac, used at http://www.dsource.org, has a MoinMoin wiki processor, and we
have a D syntax highlighting wiki macro written by JCC7.  It's not as nice as
MediaWiki from the standpoint of separating discussion and content into two
separate areas of the wiki page, but it's still fairly functional.

BA
May 07 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Brad Anderson wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:e3jc1v$1cm6$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 - desirable bonus: wiki should automatically highlight D code or
 provide plugins such that a code highlighter may be written.


 PmWiki, which the DMedia site uses, does just that.  I'm not too 
 knowledgeable with wikis, but it seems really well done.  Also, looking at 
 the outputted HTML, it seems to use stylesheets and such, looks like modern 
 HTML. 


 MoinMoin has come with high recommendations. There are already modules
 for highlighting Java code. Furthermore, D is easy to parse, so it
 should be quite easy to write a code highlighting module.

 Another good thing about MoinMoin is that Python code is much more
 maintainable than PHP or Perl (MoinMoin uses Python).


 
 Trac, used at http://www.dsource.org, has a MoinMoin wiki processor, and we
 have a D syntax highlighting wiki macro written by JCC7.  It's not as nice as
 MediaWiki from the standpoint of separating discussion and content into two
 separate areas of the wiki page, but it's still fairly functional.
 
 BA


A D-highlighting module? Sounds fantastic!

You refer to MoinMoin as "fairly functional".
Do you think MediaWiki is a better option?
May 07 2006
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:


 

 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.




 

 The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License
 (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In
 short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your
 changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the
 details should be taken from the original document made available by the
 GNU organisation...".


 
 Fantastic; that's a green light for copying the content.
 
 


Hum, actually this could be a good opportunity to do the Wiki "Garbage 
Collection" I mentioned. Or maybe a selective copy, instead of copying 
it all, if it is at all possible.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 07 2006
parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:



 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.





 The content of is Wiki4D licensed under the Free Document License
 (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FreeDocumentationLicense): "In
 short: you may use, copy and change them, but the origin and your
 changes must be transparent and you must keep their FDL status. All the
 details should be taken from the original document made available by the
 GNU organisation...".


 Fantastic; that's a green light for copying the content.


 
 Hum, actually this could be a good opportunity to do the Wiki "Garbage 
 Collection" I mentioned. Or maybe a selective copy, instead of copying 
 it all, if it is at all possible.


I assume you're referring to this proposal:
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D/37414

Since a key part of Nick's proposal is to change the wiki software, I 
think "selective copy" makes more sense than radical "garbage 
collection". And since one of the typical complaints about Wiki4D is 
stale content, I don't think that copying it all would be the best idea.

So I think "selective copy" would be the way to go.

-- 
jcc7
May 07 2006
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 It's a good idea, and it's ok with me if it's ok with Justin.


 
 Really, I don't see how it's my decision. I didn't establish Wiki4D. 
 (That was Helmut Leitner.) I don't even host the wiki. (Again, that's 
 Helmut Leitner.)


My mistake. It's ok with me if it's ok with Helmut <g>.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
nick wrote:

 Regarding wikis:
 

I haven't done so already because of the numerous existing D wiki's. 


 
 I understand that there are lots out there. Having an official wiki
 promotes the idea that D is a language that means business. It also
 makes it easy for newcomers to dive right in.


A wiki needs constant administration and hand-holding to stay sharp. 
Makin one The Official One, doesn't do much.
May 07 2006
prev sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 
 What's wrong with www.digitalmars.com/d/ as an official site?


Unless you want to do it all by yourself, then writing access must be 
given to many people.
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Tydr Schnubbis <fake address.dude> writes:
nick wrote:

 The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
 drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
 D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
 specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.
 
 Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
 and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
 one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
 blessings, naturally). Walter would have the final say for what happens
 on this site, but the community could provide more content and present
 it well while freeing up Walter's time to work on the language.
 
 I have made a template layout, and would like to donate it to the D
 cause. I hope I'm not being pretentious when I assume that with a little
 bit of polish, this layout will be good enough to represent D online.
 
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another 
thread:

http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg

It's simpler and I like the colors better.

And maybe dprogramming.com could become the address?  Probably wouldn't 
hurt to ask.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:



 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 
 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:
 
 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg
 
 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


That's not a layout. It's a JPEG. It is not possible to implement that
JPEG in HTML without relying heavily on tables (I only use one table).

The colors issue can be addressed. I will provide a light and dark skin
for my layout (switchable in firefox/safari). Give me an hour or two to
create a light variant. We can default the site to the light variant if
Walter decides that's a good idea.



 And maybe dprogramming.com could become the address?  Probably wouldn't
 hurt to ask.


That is a good idea; we could ask. On the other hand, digitalmars.com/d
is already a top hit on google.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply Florian Sonnenberger <nairolf online.de> writes:
nick schrieb:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 And maybe dprogramming.com could become the address?  Probably wouldn't
 hurt to ask.


 That is a good idea; we could ask. On the other hand, digitalmars.com/d
 is already a top hit on google.


I don't think that's so problematic.

If Walter sets a 301 HTTP redirect from digitalmars.com/d to (for 
example) dprogramming.com, Google will follow the redirect and will 
realize that the url has changed.
But don't ask me how this redirecting actually works. ;)

Hmm, and then every site that mentions the old address would have to 
update their links.

Google describes this at 
http://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=9071&topic=363

Florian
May 06 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Florian Sonnenberger wrote:

 nick schrieb:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 And maybe dprogramming.com could become the address?  Probably wouldn't
 hurt to ask.


 That is a good idea; we could ask. On the other hand, digitalmars.com/d
 is already a top hit on google.


 
 I don't think that's so problematic.
 
 If Walter sets a 301 HTTP redirect from digitalmars.com/d to (for
 example) dprogramming.com, Google will follow the redirect and will
 realize that the url has changed.
 But don't ask me how this redirecting actually works. ;)
 
 Hmm, and then every site that mentions the old address would have to
 update their links.
 
 Google describes this at
 http://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=9071&topic=363
 
 Florian


Very true. We would have to make arrangements with the owner of
dprogramming.com. I will shoot him an email later today.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply Tydr Schnubbis <fake address.dude> writes:
nick wrote:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:


 

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 
 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:
 
 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg
 
 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


 That's not a layout. It's a JPEG. It is not possible to implement that
 JPEG in HTML without relying heavily on tables (I only use one table).
 


Why not? It doesn't have be done pixel by pixel.  Look at this:
http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/099/099.css

No tables there.
May 06 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:



 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg

 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


 That's not a layout. It's a JPEG. It is not possible to implement that
 JPEG in HTML without relying heavily on tables (I only use one table).


 Why not? It doesn't have be done pixel by pixel.  Look at this:
 http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/099/099.css
 
 No tables there.


Yes, and the layout also does not resize with the window. Even worse, it
breaks completely when you change font size. It is unacceptable.
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Yes, and the layout also does not resize with the window. Even worse, it
 breaks completely when you change font size. It is unacceptable.


I agree. My father has low vision, and he's hardly unique. So he needs 
to be able to boost the font size.

Any layout that:

1) does not work with user font size changes

2) does not allow user resizing of the windows

3) is not accessible to those using screen readers

4) uses a specified font size, rather than a relative size

5) has colors that would be difficult for color blind people to 
distinguish (I'm no expert on this, but I think it means that the 
difference between foreground and background colors should include an 
intensity difference, not just a color difference)

is not acceptable.

Also, serif fonts are less readable on bitmapped displays. The fonts 
should be sans-serif, like Arial or Helvetica.
May 06 2006
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
If only more designers followed those rules...

Sorry, just had to say it.  I deal with this sorta stuff at work.

-[Unknown]



 nick wrote:

 Yes, and the layout also does not resize with the window. Even worse, it
 breaks completely when you change font size. It is unacceptable.


 
 I agree. My father has low vision, and he's hardly unique. So he needs 
 to be able to boost the font size.
 
 Any layout that:
 
 1) does not work with user font size changes
 
 2) does not allow user resizing of the windows
 
 3) is not accessible to those using screen readers
 
 4) uses a specified font size, rather than a relative size
 
 5) has colors that would be difficult for color blind people to 
 distinguish (I'm no expert on this, but I think it means that the 
 difference between foreground and background colors should include an 
 intensity difference, not just a color difference)
 
 is not acceptable.
 
 Also, serif fonts are less readable on bitmapped displays. The fonts 
 should be sans-serif, like Arial or Helvetica.
May 06 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 If only more designers followed those rules...
 
 Sorry, just had to say it.  I deal with this sorta stuff at work.


Another rule I forgot to mention is that consideration must be paid to 
bandwidth - both for cost reasons, and because some people are still on 
dialup. The pages need to load fast, or people will go elsewhere.
May 06 2006
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
That one most people are better at following.  Although most interactive 
developers don't bother to send correct caching headers.

It's really not that bad, though, I can think of many examples of sites 
that were well-designed and were easy to make accessible while still 
following the design.

I just do interactive sites, though; I'm no artist.  As far as making 
the online presence of D feel right, accessible, interactive, and 
responsive - I could help.  But I can't help make it look pretty.

Anyway, I might also mention that whatever avenues you pursue, you also 
add to that list you have keeping internationalization and localization 
in mind.  Eventually you will want these things, I think.

Thanks,
-[Unknown]



 Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 If only more designers followed those rules...

 Sorry, just had to say it.  I deal with this sorta stuff at work.


 
 Another rule I forgot to mention is that consideration must be paid to 
 bandwidth - both for cost reasons, and because some people are still on 
 dialup. The pages need to load fast, or people will go elsewhere.
May 07 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Yet another reason I like MoinMoin: it has internationalization support.
As far as appearances go, the site doesn't need to look super pretty. It
is probably more important to not look bad than it is to look really
good. It is important to conjure up as few negative emotions as possible
in your average Internet reader/potential D enthusiast.

I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 That one most people are better at following.  Although most interactive
 developers don't bother to send correct caching headers.
 
 It's really not that bad, though, I can think of many examples of sites
 that were well-designed and were easy to make accessible while still
 following the design.
 
 I just do interactive sites, though; I'm no artist.  As far as making
 the online presence of D feel right, accessible, interactive, and
 responsive - I could help.  But I can't help make it look pretty.
 
 Anyway, I might also mention that whatever avenues you pursue, you also
 add to that list you have keeping internationalization and localization
 in mind.  Eventually you will want these things, I think.
 
 Thanks,
 -[Unknown]
May 07 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


It's looking pretty good now. One nit, though, are the tabs along the 
top. They look a bit flat?
May 07 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


 
 It's looking pretty good now. One nit, though, are the tabs along the
 top. They look a bit flat?


Would you prefer a highlight to make them look like they are just
slightly raised?
May 07 2006
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


 It's looking pretty good now. One nit, though, are the tabs along the
 top. They look a bit flat?


 
 Would you prefer a highlight to make them look like they are just
 slightly raised?


I'm not much of an artist, but they need a little more something!
May 07 2006
parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


 It's looking pretty good now. One nit, though, are the tabs along the
 top. They look a bit flat?


 Would you prefer a highlight to make them look like they are just
 slightly raised?


 
 I'm not much of an artist, but they need a little more something!



Strange... I like flat and simple... it must be preference thing.

-JJR
May 07 2006
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Sun, 07 May 2006 20:58:31 -0700, John Reimer wrote:


 Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 nick wrote:

 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


 It's looking pretty good now. One nit, though, are the tabs along the
 top. They look a bit flat?


 Would you prefer a highlight to make them look like they are just
 slightly raised?


 
 I'm not much of an artist, but they need a little more something!


 
 Strange... I like flat and simple... it must be preference thing.


Not so strange ... I too like the flat tab look. 

To my POV, if you have more 3-d looking tabs here, it is just eye candy. It
does nothing to aid visual distinction. It might even be seen as a
distraction because the rest of the view port is flat. It's not that it
would look bad, but just not necessary (in the philosophical sense). In
other words, pretty, but why bother?

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocracy!"
8/05/2006 2:19:46 PM
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent John C <johnch_atms hotmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
  > I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm

 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).


I feel a more utilitarian approach would suit D better. This design 
seems far too dark and I fail to see how it's an improvement on the 
current site.

The Python site at http://www.python.org looks great and conveys a 
professional feel, while actually being fairly plain. One of the nicer 
language sites I've seen.

John C.
May 08 2006
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
nick wrote:

 Yet another reason I like MoinMoin: it has internationalization support.
 As far as appearances go, the site doesn't need to look super pretty. It
 is probably more important to not look bad than it is to look really
 good. It is important to conjure up as few negative emotions as possible
 in your average Internet reader/potential D enthusiast.
 
 I have set up a temporary MoinMoin install on my Powerbook while I'm
 creating the D Theme for it (html template available here:
 www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html).
 
 
 Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 That one most people are better at following.  Although most interactive
 developers don't bother to send correct caching headers.

 It's really not that bad, though, I can think of many examples of sites
 that were well-designed and were easy to make accessible while still
 following the design.

 I just do interactive sites, though; I'm no artist.  As far as making
 the online presence of D feel right, accessible, interactive, and
 responsive - I could help.  But I can't help make it look pretty.

 Anyway, I might also mention that whatever avenues you pursue, you also
 add to that list you have keeping internationalization and localization
 in mind.  Eventually you will want these things, I think.

 Thanks,
 -[Unknown]




Let me say I too am one of those who isn't very found of this new 
design. I think utility and usability are more important, and although 
the current site could use some minor cosmetic changes, I too think this 
new template is "too pretty".
For instance, those "d" and "c++" outlines on the code samples, yuck. 
And I also don't like the dark style, the rounded tabs, the too small 
width of the the left navigation bar as the well the bold text there. I 
do realize, however, that this is a particularly subjective issue.

Also, let me take this opportunity to make a remark (regarding 
functionality). There should be an accessible way on the site to search 
the documentation only. Currently the NG archives are searched as well, 
and they get most of the search results :/ . Basically I mean something 
like the following google search:
site:digitalmars.com/d -digitalmars.com/d/archives FOOBAR
(thx dbot)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 08 2006
prev sibling parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:

 nick wrote:



 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg

 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


 That's not a layout. It's a JPEG. It is not possible to implement that
 JPEG in HTML without relying heavily on tables (I only use one table).


 Why not? It doesn't have be done pixel by pixel.  Look at this:
 http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/099/099.css
 
 No tables there.


Here is an example of how much my layout can zoom (your browser will
probably scale that down; make sure to look at it real size):
http://www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/d_zoom.png

You want to be as font-size independent as possible. The csszengarden
layout expect you to be at the default font size.
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Tydr Schnubbis wrote:
...

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 
 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another 
 thread:
 
 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg
 
 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


I think they each have different strengths and perhaps weaknesses.

What kind of HTML does it take to look like for "mockup5ey.jpg"?

(Nick started off which a graphic file, too, but he eventually shared 
the actual HTML/CSS with us.)

-- 
jcc7
May 06 2006
parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jari-Matti_M=E4kel=E4?= <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:
 ...

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg

 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


 
 I think they each have different strengths and perhaps weaknesses.
 
 What kind of HTML does it take to look like for "mockup5ey.jpg"?
 
 (Nick started off which a graphic file, too, but he eventually shared
 the actual HTML/CSS with us.)
 


I think it's pretty easy to support both layouts with css-stylesheets.
The blueish background looks a bit dirty in mockup5ey, but I guess it's
a transparent png rendered with IE6. The template by nick looks
promising. It's a bit dark, but it has a clean, official look'n'feel.

Firefox/Opera and others also support alternative stylesheets. If the
user doesn't know how to switch between them, a cookie-based approach
can be used. The biggest problem would be to make the html structure
flexible enough to support different layouts. It's always a tradeoff
between code complexity, rendering speed, bandwidth usage and overall
'coolness'. I would personally prefer a 'simple' layout without huge
images, tables and detailed background textures.

Using lighttpd (http://www.lighttpd.net/) as web server instead of
apache really boosts up performance, especially when serving static content.

I'm still absolutely positive of the fact that web page layout matters.
I tried to convert few friends of mine from Pascal and C/C++ to D in
2003. They were frightened by the terrible looking index page of
digitalmars. Now that digitalmars uses stylesheets and we have that
unofficial language wiki (http://www.quit-clan.de/docwiki/) it has been
much easier to introduce D to several enthusiastic persons. Prowiki is
highly functional, but it doesn't look as modern as mediawiki or trac.

-- 
Jari-Matti
May 07 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Jari-Matti Mäkelä wrote:

 Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 Tydr Schnubbis wrote:
 ...

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)


 Somehow I think this one looks a lot better.  It was posted in another
 thread:

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg

 It's simpler and I like the colors better.


 I think they each have different strengths and perhaps weaknesses.

 What kind of HTML does it take to look like for "mockup5ey.jpg"?

 (Nick started off which a graphic file, too, but he eventually shared
 the actual HTML/CSS with us.)


 
 I think it's pretty easy to support both layouts with css-stylesheets.
 The blueish background looks a bit dirty in mockup5ey, but I guess it's
 a transparent png rendered with IE6.


It's not IE6. That is a JPEG straight out of Photoshop; you can tell by
the font AA.


 The template by nick looks
 promising. It's a bit dark, but it has a clean, official look'n'feel.



making a MoinMoin theme.



 Firefox/Opera and others also support alternative stylesheets. If the
 user doesn't know how to switch between them, a cookie-based approach
 can be used. The biggest problem would be to make the html structure
 flexible enough to support different layouts. It's always a tradeoff
 between code complexity, rendering speed, bandwidth usage and overall
 'coolness'. I would personally prefer a 'simple' layout without huge
 images, tables and detailed background textures.


Yeah, I already have 2 alternatives: fixed layout and flexible layout.
The fixed layout gives you are true zoom, while the flexible layout
conforms to a browser window.



 I'm still absolutely positive of the fact that web page layout matters.
 I tried to convert few friends of mine from Pascal and C/C++ to D in
 2003. They were frightened by the terrible looking index page of
 digitalmars. Now that digitalmars uses stylesheets and we have that
 unofficial language wiki (http://www.quit-clan.de/docwiki/) it has been
 much easier to introduce D to several enthusiastic persons. Prowiki is
 highly functional, but it doesn't look as modern as mediawiki or trac.


I'm with you on that one.
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Jarno Tuomainen <Jarno_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3ipce$kr4$1 digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...

The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.


If that new web site comes into reality, do not forget good (complete and fast
to use) language reference, tutorials and examples. Meaning documentation that
do not assume user is c++ guru with 37 years of coding experience.

Documentation is basically weakest point with D currently, and it needs to be
fixed sooner or later.
May 08 2006
prev sibling parent reply Cris <central_p hotmail.com> writes:
Does this site work with Firefox or it just doesn't work at all?

nick wrote:

 The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
 drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
 D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
 specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.
 
 Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
 and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
 one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
 blessings, naturally). Walter would have the final say for what happens
 on this site, but the community could provide more content and present
 it well while freeing up Walter's time to work on the language.
 
 I have made a template layout, and would like to donate it to the D
 cause. I hope I'm not being pretentious when I assume that with a little
 bit of polish, this layout will be good enough to represent D online.
 
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)
 
 
 Walter, what do you think about this?
 
 
 Anyone interested in helping, anyone with criticism/suggestions, etc, I
 would like to hear from you.
 
 Some of the immediate questions that would need to be answered are:
  - Walter's blessing (after all, we can't be "official" without that)
  - reliable hosting
  - new wiki (wiki4d has good content, do we have permission to use it?)
  - content: wiki content, tutorials for D, library reference; a lot of
 it exists but we need to bring it to one place with permission
May 18 2006
parent me <me_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e4i0ke$1u20$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Cris says...

Does this site work with Firefox or it just doesn't work at all?


This is simply a template, not a full blown site. As such it does not work!


nick wrote:

 The thread "Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!" seems to have
 drawn a group of people interested in improving the online presence of
 D. I read many reassuring posts and decided to create a new thread
 specifically for the purpose of improving the online presence of D.
 
 Ideally D's online presence would be centralized. It would be approved
 and supported by Walter. Perhaps what we need is an "official" D site;
 one that would replace http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (only with Walter's
 blessings, naturally). Walter would have the final say for what happens
 on this site, but the community could provide more content and present
 it well while freeing up Walter's time to work on the language.
 
 I have made a template layout, and would like to donate it to the D
 cause. I hope I'm not being pretentious when I assume that with a little
 bit of polish, this layout will be good enough to represent D online.
 
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html (improvements pending)
 
 
 Walter, what do you think about this?
 
 
 Anyone interested in helping, anyone with criticism/suggestions, etc, I
 would like to hear from you.
 
 Some of the immediate questions that would need to be answered are:
  - Walter's blessing (after all, we can't be "official" without that)
  - reliable hosting
  - new wiki (wiki4d has good content, do we have permission to use it?)
  - content: wiki content, tutorials for D, library reference; a lot of
 it exists but we need to bring it to one place with permission
May 18 2006