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digitalmars.D - A new lame UI toolkit for D

reply Roberto Alsina <ralsina kde.org> writes:
Hello, I am a newbie with D, and I wrote a little binding for the IUP free 
multiplatform (windows/unix) toolkit.

More details here:

http://cablemodem.fibertel.com.ar/lateral/weblog/2006/04/18.html#P359

Not very D-ist (you write pretty much in C ;-) but it seems to be working.
Apr 17 2006
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Roberto Alsina wrote:

 Hello, I am a newbie with D,


<snip>

And a newbie with newsgroups as well I see.

Newsreaders allow you to post a single message to two or more newsgroups
simultaneously.  This is called crossposting, and is the only
appropriate way to share a message across multiple newsgroups.

Please see

http://smjg.port5.com/faqs/usenet/xpost.html
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/xpost.html

and then, since you've multiposted this time, pick a 'group on which you
would like people to answer you.

Stewart.
Apr 18 2006
parent reply Roberto Alsina <ralsina kde.org> writes:
In article <e22g67$2hkq$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Stewart Gordon says...

Roberto Alsina wrote:

 Hello, I am a newbie with D,


<snip>

And a newbie with newsgroups as well I see.


Oh, sure. I wrote a goddamn newsreader in 1997, though.

I just had never used this web interface. But what the heck. I had forgotten 
how usenet was. Thanks for reminding me, oh annoying guy.

I shouldn't have posted this message, but really... you just pissed me off.
Apr 18 2006
next sibling parent reply Chris Nicholson-Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
Roberto Alsina wrote:

 In article <e22g67$2hkq$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Stewart Gordon says...
 

Roberto Alsina wrote:


Hello, I am a newbie with D,


<snip>

And a newbie with newsgroups as well I see.


 
 
 Oh, sure. I wrote a goddamn newsreader in 1997, though.
 
 I just had never used this web interface. But what the heck. I had forgotten 
 how usenet was. Thanks for reminding me, oh annoying guy.
 
 I shouldn't have posted this message, but really... you just pissed me off.
 


There's the problem right there: the evil web interface.  General concensus is
that it 
really isn't useful for participating.  It has its uses for archival purposes,
and that's 
about it.

-- Chris Nicholson-Sauls
Apr 18 2006
parent Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote:
<snip>

 There's the problem right there: the evil web interface.


The web interface was certainly capable of crossposting on 22 March this 
year.  Presumably by typing a comma-separated list of newsgroups to post 
to, just like in most newsreaders.

But you have a point insofar as people who use the web interface might 
not realise/remember that they are posting to Usenet-like newsgroups, 
and as such that the option of crossposting is available.  Well pointed 
out.  I'm still used to posts made from that interface being addressed 
from *_member pathlink.com addresses.


 General concensus is that it really isn't useful for participating.  It has
its 
 uses for archival purposes, and that's about it.


It's useful for when you're away from the computer on which you usually 
access newsgroups.  But indeed, it isn't really useful for regular 
participation.

Stewart.
Apr 20 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Roberto Alsina wrote:

 In article <e22g67$2hkq$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Stewart Gordon says...

 Roberto Alsina wrote:

 Hello, I am a newbie with D,


 <snip>

 And a newbie with newsgroups as well I see.


 
 Oh, sure. I wrote a goddamn newsreader in 1997, though.
 
 I just had never used this web interface. But what the heck. I had forgotten 
 how usenet was. Thanks for reminding me, oh annoying guy.
 
 I shouldn't have posted this message, but really... you just pissed me off.
 
 



I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This 
isn't Usenet.  I saw no problems with your postings.

It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the 
newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that 
here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing). 
This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as I 
see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that it 
doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to 
anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not 
worry about his post until some official word states that he is given a 
special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start backing 
up his request).

Sorry Stewart, I don't want to annoy you, but you seem overly officious 
here.  You come across just as abrasive and abrupt as you might have 
accused Matthew of some time ago.

I guess some people like taking things into their own hands if they 
think they see the need.  I just don't understand that in this case.

-JJR
Apr 18 2006
next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jari-Matti_M=E4kel=E4?= <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> writes:
John Reimer wrote:


 I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This
 isn't Usenet.  I saw no problems with your postings.
 
 It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the
 newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that
 here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing).
 This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as I
 see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that it
 doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to
 anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not
 worry about his post until some official word states that he is given a
 special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start backing
 up his request).


Perhaps you're more right than Stewart. We don't need strict moderation
here, but still multiposting is something you probably want to avoid.
It's a bit annoying to read exactly same comments from different persons
on both .D and .D.announce. This simply wastes the potential power of
the community and makes it slower to develop D.

Just my 2 cents.

-- 
Jari-Matti
Apr 18 2006
next sibling parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Jari-Matti Mäkelä wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:
 

 I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This
 isn't Usenet.  I saw no problems with your postings.

 It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the
 newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that
 here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing).
 This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as I
 see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that it
 doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to
 anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not
 worry about his post until some official word states that he is given a
 special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start backing
 up his request).


 
 Perhaps you're more right than Stewart. We don't need strict moderation
 here, but still multiposting is something you probably want to avoid.
 It's a bit annoying to read exactly same comments from different persons
 on both .D and .D.announce. This simply wastes the potential power of
 the community and makes it slower to develop D.
 
 Just my 2 cents.
 



Granted.  And with more gentle comments like this, we get a good 
indication of what this community wants to see in the future for this 
newsgroup.  It's a little nicer than pouncing on new D users the very 
first post they make.  I figure it's a good thing to attract the D users 
that are coming into the community with contributions.

:D

-JJR
Apr 18 2006
prev sibling parent reply Tom <ihate spam.com> writes:
Jari-Matti Mäkelä escribió:

 John Reimer wrote:
 

 I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This
 isn't Usenet.  I saw no problems with your postings.

 It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the
 newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that
 here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing).
 This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as I
 see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that it
 doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to
 anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not
 worry about his post until some official word states that he is given a
 special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start backing
 up his request).


 
 Perhaps you're more right than Stewart. We don't need strict moderation
 here, but still multiposting is something you probably want to avoid.
 It's a bit annoying to read exactly same comments from different persons
 on both .D and .D.announce. This simply wastes the potential power of
 the community and makes it slower to develop D.
 
 Just my 2 cents.
 


No offense but perhaps Stewart's way was a little too arrogant. The same 
could had been said with a less "pedantic" accent.

I like D newsgroups very much because it's in general filled of mostly 
calm and clever people. ;)

JMHO

--
Tom;
Apr 18 2006
parent jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e2471c$1q1f$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Tom says...

No offense but perhaps Stewart's way was a little too arrogant. The same 
could had been said with a less "pedantic" accent.


I agree it comes across as pedantic ("Welcome to newsgroups"). The same
information could be relayed without being condescending.

By the way, it's some kind of form letter (not that that's necessarily a bad
thing):
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/29321
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D.bugs/5485
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D/16725

On the other hand, I don't like multiple posting, so I think we could cut
Stewart some slack. Whether or not a person has newsgroup experience, I don't
think it's polite for a newcomer (or even a veteran) to send the same post to
multiple newsgroups and then cuss us out if someone says anything.


I like D newsgroups very much because it's in general filled of mostly 
calm and clever people. ;)


I agree.

jcc7
Apr 19 2006
prev sibling parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
John Reimer wrote:
<snip>

 I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This 
 isn't Usenet.


What's that to do with anything?  I can't see how this nullifies a 
single raison d'etre of Usenetiquette.


 I saw no problems with your postings.
 
 It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the 
 newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that 
 here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing). 
 This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as I 
 see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that it 
 doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to 
 anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not 
 worry about his post until some official word states that he is given a 
 special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start backing 
 up his request).


Generally, people who post advice on how to post to newsgroups don't 
claim any special authority to do so.  They simply pass on guidance that 
has grown out of both experience and common sense, and which is accepted 
by most of the more knowledgeable and experienced newsgroup users.


 Sorry Stewart, I don't want to annoy you, but you seem overly officious 
 here.  You come across just as abrasive and abrupt as you might have 
 accused Matthew of some time ago.


<snip>

Well, I don't mean to be abrasive or abrupt, just helpful.

Stewart.
Apr 19 2006
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:
 <snip>

 I'm not sure why Stewart suddenly felt obligated to post this.  This 
 isn't Usenet.


 
 What's that to do with anything?  I can't see how this nullifies a 
 single raison d'etre of Usenetiquette.
 

 I saw no problems with your postings.

 It's strange to watch how people start making decisions about how the 
 newsgroup is to be run (for the most part, I haven't seen much of that 
 here over the years: people have been quite relaxed about the thing). 
 This newsgroup has no moderation or authority to control it, as far as 
 I see beyond the responses of the community itself.  Not to say that 
 it doesn't need such control, but that authority hasn't been given to 
 anybody here in particular, let alone Stewart.  So I suggest you not 
 worry about his post until some official word states that he is given 
 a special moderation task for this newsgroup (or the members start 
 backing up his request).


 
 Generally, people who post advice on how to post to newsgroups don't 
 claim any special authority to do so.  They simply pass on guidance that 
 has grown out of both experience and common sense, and which is accepted 
 by most of the more knowledgeable and experienced newsgroup users.
 

 Sorry Stewart, I don't want to annoy you, but you seem overly 
 officious here.  You come across just as abrasive and abrupt as you 
 might have accused Matthew of some time ago.


 <snip>
 
 Well, I don't mean to be abrasive or abrupt, just helpful.
 
 Stewart.



Okay... that's good to hear! :)

-JJR
Apr 19 2006
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Roberto Alsina wrote:

 In article <e22g67$2hkq$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Stewart Gordon says...

 Roberto Alsina wrote:

 Hello, I am a newbie with D,


 <snip>

 And a newbie with newsgroups as well I see.


 
 Oh, sure. I wrote a goddamn newsreader in 1997, though.
 
 I just had never used this web interface. But what the heck. I had forgotten 
 how usenet was. Thanks for reminding me, oh annoying guy.
 
 I shouldn't have posted this message, but really... you just pissed me off.
 
 


I would say, given the situation, that Steward's supposition that you 
were a newsgroups newbie, although it turned out false, was quite 
plausible. (I would have inferred the same, in the same circumstances.)
So it might not have been appropriate to lash out at him like that.

Any particular reason you are using the web interface instead of a 
newsgroups client?

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Apr 18 2006
parent reply Joshua Cearley <joshua blackcrystal.us> writes:
I may be particularly wrong here, but isn't this thread about the IUP 
binding? Comments are useful, but I do not believe that there should be 
a debate on net-etiquette on an announcement :p

-Skrylar
Apr 18 2006
next sibling parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Joshua Cearley wrote:

 I may be particularly wrong here, but isn't this thread about the IUP 
 binding? Comments are useful, but I do not believe that there should be 
 a debate on net-etiquette on an announcement :p
 
 -Skrylar



Is your post above about the IUP binding, Joshua?  ;D

Banter aside, examine the D newsgroups past history.  We don't 
necessarily follow typical Usenet rules about posts, which is one of my 
points.  We've gotten along fairly well despite that.

The community speaks as it sees fit. And until somebody like Walter puts 
some rules in place, I don't see anything changing.  I'm amazed the 
group has survived so well, self-governed as it is. :)

-JJR
Apr 18 2006
prev sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Joshua Cearley wrote:


 I may be particularly wrong here, but isn't this thread about the IUP 
 binding? Comments are useful, but I do not believe that there should be 
 a debate on net-etiquette on an announcement :p


Intriguingly, the on-topic thread was in the "announce" newsgroup. :-)


Even more confusingly, I *think* that such discussions (= about GUI)
are supposed to go in the digitalmars.D.dwt group ? Even if not DWT.

But wherever it takes place, all the discussion and testing about the 
existing UI toolkits should be a good thing for D, as it needs help ?


IUP is a neat and slim toolkit, even if it is somewhat lowlevel
and only does Motif (beyond Windows) at the moment (not GTK/Mac)

There's plenty of details at http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/
(You should also check out: CD [Canvas Draw] and Lua, on there)

--anders
Apr 19 2006
next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Anders F Björklund wrote:


 Joshua Cearley wrote:
 

 I may be particularly wrong here, but isn't this thread about the IUP
 binding? Comments are useful, but I do not believe that there should be
 a debate on net-etiquette on an announcement :p


 
 Intriguingly, the on-topic thread was in the "announce" newsgroup. :-)
 
 
 Even more confusingly, I *think* that such discussions (= about GUI)
 are supposed to go in the digitalmars.D.dwt group ? Even if not DWT.
 
 But wherever it takes place, all the discussion and testing about the
 existing UI toolkits should be a good thing for D, as it needs help ?
 
 
 IUP is a neat and slim toolkit, even if it is somewhat lowlevel
 and only does Motif (beyond Windows) at the moment (not GTK/Mac)


According to Roberto's blog, he is actually on his way to make a Qt backend,
even got a window up.
Apr 19 2006
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QW5kZXJzIEYgQmrDtnJrbHVuZA==?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


IUP is a neat and slim toolkit, even if it is somewhat lowlevel
and only does Motif (beyond Windows) at the moment (not GTK/Mac)


 
 According to Roberto's blog, he is actually on his way to make a Qt backend,
 even got a window up.


Well, even I got a window up in a Mac driver of IUP, before I stopped.
:-)

But I guess he'll be making more progress, even if it'll require Qt...
Qt4 is nice, even if it "costs" too much for my projects (GPL or $$$)


A Mac driver for IUP, and a Mac driver for MinWin, would still be neat;
but for the time being I'm just using wxWidgets as that is already done.

There's also a matter of the previous Mac drivers needing porting, from
QuickDraw and Toolbox - over to Quartz 2D and CoreFoundation/HIToolbox.

But the newer (Mac OS X 10.3+) UI system should be *easier* to write to,
as it now has a view hierarchy that the old system (OS 9 / 10.1) didn't.


As for GTK+, I have seen that it gives very good results on Linux and
it sure looks nicer than what the "oldskool" Motif interface does... ?

MinWin already does GTK+, and it wouldn't hurt if IUP did GTK+ too.
(think it has been on the IUP library "To Do" list for a while, but)

Even if the two libraries (IUP and MinWin) have different designs,
their "implementation" is somewhat similar - at least "in spirit" ?


One is table-driven and one is OOP, but they're both minimalistic...
Which has the positive side-effect of them being a lot smaller, too.

When compared with the big ones like SWT, Qt, or wxWidgets, I mean ?
(Looking at the newsgroup and forum, it seemed DWT grinded to a halt)

And it's possible to use the X11 versions on the Mac, while gathering
resources for true / native ports. OpenOffice does this, for instance.

--anders
Apr 19 2006
parent reply Roberto Alsina <Roberto_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e24ro3$2rpk$1 digitaldaemon.com>,
=?UTF-8?B?QW5kZXJzIEYgQmrDtnJrbHVuZA==?= says...

Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


IUP is a neat and slim toolkit, even if it is somewhat lowlevel
and only does Motif (beyond Windows) at the moment (not GTK/Mac)


 
 According to Roberto's blog, he is actually on his way to make a Qt backend,
 even got a window up.


Well, even I got a window up in a Mac driver of IUP, before I stopped.
:-)


Hey, I got resizing and the "ACTION" callback, too!


But the newer (Mac OS X 10.3+) UI system should be *easier* to write to,
as it now has a view hierarchy that the old system (OS 9 / 10.1) didn't.


The Qt code is so much cleaner than the Motif backend it's not even
funny. I expect the same thing would happen when switching to the new mac
toolkits.


One is table-driven and one is OOP, but they're both minimalistic...


A OO D wrapper around IUP should be rather simple to implement.
Sure, you end up having more layers than the average cake:

Carbon->Qt->IUP->DIUP->OO wrapper

or

X11->Qt->IUP->DIUP->OO wrapper


Which has the positive side-effect of them being a lot smaller, too.


Yup. I guesstimate the Qt backend to about 2KLOC which is very little
when it comes to toolkits.


When compared with the big ones like SWT, Qt, or wxWidgets, I mean ?
(Looking at the newsgroup and forum, it seemed DWT grinded to a halt)

And it's possible to use the X11 versions on the Mac, while gathering
resources for true / native ports. OpenOffice does this, for instance.


At my current rate, if I can keep up the interest for about a week there 
should be a working IUP/Qt. Then again, that's a pretty big IF!
Apr 19 2006
parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Roberto Alsina wrote:


Well, even I got a window up in a Mac driver of IUP, before I stopped.
:-)


 
 Hey, I got resizing and the "ACTION" callback, too!


And it's only been a couple of days, right ?


Which has the positive side-effect of them being a lot smaller, too.


 
 Yup. I guesstimate the Qt backend to about 2KLOC which is very little
 when it comes to toolkits.


Almost makes me take another shot at it...

At least to see how much work it would be to
make it run with the new Carbon and Lua 5.1 ?

--anders
Apr 19 2006
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Anders F Björklund wrote:

 
 Even more confusingly, I *think* that such discussions (= about GUI)
 are supposed to go in the digitalmars.D.dwt group ? Even if not DWT.
 


I agree they should. Unfortunately, given the NG name, it is highly 
unlikely that a newcomer will know that. :/


-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Apr 19 2006