www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - IDE

reply David Rasmussen <David_member pathlink.com> writes:
Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?
Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?
Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?
Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?

/David
Feb 22 2006
next sibling parent reply One Wise Monkee <One_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <dtihv7$2vtm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rasmussen says...

Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?
Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?
Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?
Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?


http://lwn.net/2000/0914/a/lt-debugger.php3

:~o
Feb 22 2006
next sibling parent MicroWizard <MicroWizard_member pathlink.com> writes:
Dear Wise Monkey,

Are you ashame of writing down your name?

Someone does use printf to debug oneself code.
Someone does use an IDE.
Linus does not use kernel debugger.
Linus writes kernel code. And is able to do it right this way.

Do you write always Linux kernel modules? How many did you?

I like D and I use D. I would like to use a stable IDE but I can live with
printf now. It is so simple.

Dear IDE developers!
Please continue your work, support D!
The community need IDEs. 

Tamas Nagy


In article <dtjbds$ve3$1 digitaldaemon.com>, One Wise Monkee says...

In article <dtihv7$2vtm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rasmussen says...

Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?
Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?
Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?
Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?


http://lwn.net/2000/0914/a/lt-debugger.php3

:~o
Feb 24 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
One Wise Monkee wrote:

 In article <dtihv7$2vtm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rasmussen says...

 Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?
 Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?
 Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?
 Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?


 
 http://lwn.net/2000/0914/a/lt-debugger.php3
 
 :~o
 
 



Interesting... Linus' opinion here is rather weightless apart from his 
rather extensive influence in the Linux world.

He can rant away and get away with it.  He can throw his weight around, 
call debuggers useless, brand programmers with ineptitude who use them, 
and harbor pretense of humble self-deprecation craftily disguised as 
cold, cruel honesty (apparently a special right of his in which he 
ignores any experience, feelings, or knowledge of any other developer). 
  He does all this and apparently people still worship him as someone 
who has spoken the one and only truth.  He can call himself a bastard 
and nobody will take him seriously.  He's honest, right?  He doesn't 
care what people think, correct?  Noble savage... or so he thinks himself.

All his words amount to nothing more than verbalized self-confidence. 
Anybody can have it, but it's usually more effectively flouted in people 
that have demonstrated success in some area.  Nobody listens to the 
nobody.  But here is the fallacy: Linus is not the only expert, or the 
only man experienced in this field. He can spout, but his words prove 
nothing more than that he has special confidence in his own ideas and 
success.

People like Linus sometimes come to regret what they say as they mature. 
I know.

-JJR


PS. This is not to say that what Linus said is categorically wrong. 
This is just me expressing my annoyance at his manner in attempting to 
prove his point.
Feb 24 2006
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
John Reimer wrote:

 
 All his words amount to nothing more than verbalized self-confidence. 
 Anybody can have it, but it's usually more effectively flouted in people 
 that have demonstrated success in some area.  Nobody listens to the 
 nobody.  But here is the fallacy: Linus is not the only expert, or the 
 only man experienced in this field. He can spout, but his words prove 
 nothing more than that he has special confidence in his own ideas and 
 success.


This is why I rarely pay attention to Linus' rants--his opinions tend to 
be a bit myopic.  Being a skilled programmer doesn't make him right 
about everything.


Sean
Feb 24 2006
parent Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:

 All his words amount to nothing more than verbalized self-confidence. 
 Anybody can have it, but it's usually more effectively flouted in 
 people that have demonstrated success in some area.  Nobody listens to 
 the nobody.  But here is the fallacy: Linus is not the only expert, or 
 the only man experienced in this field. He can spout, but his words 
 prove nothing more than that he has special confidence in his own 
 ideas and success.


 
 This is why I rarely pay attention to Linus' rants--his opinions tend to 
 be a bit myopic.  Being a skilled programmer doesn't make him right 
 about everything.
 
 
 Sean


Remind you of anyone? ;-)

All these genius' need to come down from their respective summits
Feb 24 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
One Wise Monkee wrote:

 In article <dtihv7$2vtm$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rasmussen says...
 

Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?
Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?
Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?
Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?


 
 http://lwn.net/2000/0914/a/lt-debugger.php3


Heh, I read the article, and found myself agreeing with every point in it.

Kernel work is such a serious thing that the faint should be gotten rid 
of as fast as possible. And the bit about not having a debugger forces 
you to think what the _program_ does vs. what a single line of code 
does, was just succinctly said.

At the end I found it signed Linus. I was proud to have agreed on the 
points, and I was ashamed to not having noticed the author's name right 
at the top.

---

Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really seem 
to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because I find 
myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead of thinking 
of the problem.

With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real 
programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.

Then again, not everybody should even try to become a Real Programmer. 
Even the VB crowd can find jobs suitable for them. In the future, also in D.
Feb 24 2006
next sibling parent reply John Reimer <John_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <43FFBB0A.9080007 nospam.org>, Georg Wrede says...


Heh, I read the article, and found myself agreeing with every point in it.

Kernel work is such a serious thing that the faint should be gotten rid 
of as fast as possible. And the bit about not having a debugger forces 
you to think what the _program_ does vs. what a single line of code 
does, was just succinctly said.

At the end I found it signed Linus. I was proud to have agreed on the 
points, and I was ashamed to not having noticed the author's name right 
at the top.

---

Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really seem 
to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because I find 
myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead of thinking 
of the problem.

With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real 
programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.

Then again, not everybody should even try to become a Real Programmer. 
Even the VB crowd can find jobs suitable for them. In the future, also in D.



You mention a lot of pride here.  Are you from Finland, by any chance, Georg? ;)

I see you share more than one thing in common with Linus to be proud of. :)

Otherwise, I'm sure your opinion is worth its weight... besides the ticklish jab
at what consitutes a "Real Programmer."

-JJR
Feb 24 2006
parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
John Reimer wrote:

 In article <43FFBB0A.9080007 nospam.org>, Georg Wrede says...
 
 

 Heh, I read the article, and found myself agreeing with every point
 in it.
 
 Kernel work is such a serious thing that the faint should be gotten
 rid of as fast as possible. And the bit about not having a debugger
 forces you to think what the _program_ does vs. what a single line
 of code does, was just succinctly said.
 
 At the end I found it signed Linus. I was proud to have agreed on
 the points, and I was ashamed to not having noticed the author's
 name right at the top.
 
 ---
 
 Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really
 seem to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because
 I find myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead
 of thinking of the problem.
 
 With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real
 programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.
 
 Then again, not everybody should even try to become a Real
 Programmer. Even the VB crowd can find jobs suitable for them. In
 the future, also in D.


 
 You mention a lot of pride here.  Are you from Finland, by any
 chance, Georg? ;)
 
 I see you share more than one thing in common with Linus to be proud
 of. :)
 
 Otherwise, I'm sure your opinion is worth its weight... besides the
 ticklish jab at what consitutes a "Real Programmer."


Crap! You've exposed me! Now I can't say anything positive about Linus 
without everyone getting suspicious!
Feb 25 2006
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:

 You mention a lot of pride here.  Are you from Finland, by any
 chance, Georg? ;)

 I see you share more than one thing in common with Linus to be proud
 of. :)

 Otherwise, I'm sure your opinion is worth its weight... besides the
 ticklish jab at what consitutes a "Real Programmer."


 
 Crap! You've exposed me! Now I can't say anything positive about Linus 
 without everyone getting suspicious!



Ha... yes, I suppose that was rather surreptitious of me. :)

I'm glad you forgive me. ;)

-JJR
Feb 25 2006
prev sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 
 Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really seem 
 to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because I find 
 myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead of thinking 
 of the problem.
 
 With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real 
 programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.


Debuggers become quite useful in team environments where you didn't 
necessarily write a lot of the code in the program.  Particularly if 
it's an old program where DBC and similar approaches simply aren't 
feasible because the app was designed with the expectation that invalid 
parameters should be swallowed.  Sure I could still work out in my head 
how the thing is working, but if the system is alreadying held together 
by spit and bubblegum it may take quite a while to accomplish.  I think 
Linus' comments are valid for some portion of the software community, 
but not necessarily all of it.


Sean
Feb 24 2006
parent reply John Reimer <John_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <dtp0m9$5gl$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sean Kelly says...

Georg Wrede wrote:

 
 Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really seem 
 to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because I find 
 myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead of thinking 
 of the problem.
 
 With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real 
 programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.


Debuggers become quite useful in team environments where you didn't 
necessarily write a lot of the code in the program.  Particularly if 
it's an old program where DBC and similar approaches simply aren't 
feasible because the app was designed with the expectation that invalid 
parameters should be swallowed.  Sure I could still work out in my head 
how the thing is working, but if the system is alreadying held together 
by spit and bubblegum it may take quite a while to accomplish.  I think 
Linus' comments are valid for some portion of the software community, 
but not necessarily all of it.


Sean



I agree, Sean.  But looking over the article again, I have to observe that Linus
was quite specific about his opinion as it applied to /kernel/ debuggers.  He
doesn't seem to have given an opinion on the use of debuggers in general.  Thus,
I may have overeacted about his opinion, though I still disliked his manner (I
haven't the experience to counter his opinion about kernel debuggers).

The generalization occured as a result of Georg Wrede's post in which he took
Linus opinion and expanded it into a distaste for debuggers in general.

-JJR
Feb 25 2006
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
John Reimer wrote:

 In article <dtp0m9$5gl$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sean Kelly says...

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people really seem 
 to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use them, because I find 
 myself distracted and concentrating on the debugger instead of thinking 
 of the problem.

 With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a real 
 programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby wheels.


 Debuggers become quite useful in team environments where you didn't 
 necessarily write a lot of the code in the program.  Particularly if 
 it's an old program where DBC and similar approaches simply aren't 
 feasible because the app was designed with the expectation that invalid 
 parameters should be swallowed.  Sure I could still work out in my head 
 how the thing is working, but if the system is alreadying held together 
 by spit and bubblegum it may take quite a while to accomplish.  I think 
 Linus' comments are valid for some portion of the software community, 
 but not necessarily all of it.


 
 
 I agree, Sean.  But looking over the article again, I have to observe that
Linus
 was quite specific about his opinion as it applied to /kernel/ debuggers.  He
 doesn't seem to have given an opinion on the use of debuggers in general. 
Thus,
 I may have overeacted about his opinion, though I still disliked his manner (I
 haven't the experience to counter his opinion about kernel debuggers).


I realized that later as well.  But I still disagree with Linus.  It 
seems like he's creating an artificially high barrier for entry in hopes 
that it will filter out some of the people he'd rather not work with, 
and to allow him to blame the inherent difficulty of kernel programming 
when someone requests a feature he doesn't want to implement.  But Linus 
has both the right to choose or reject whomever he wants as a 
co-developer, and the right to say "no" to anyone he chooses.  Upon 
reflection, it seems like Linus has simply constructed a situation that 
allows him to avoid confrontation and to make him feel like he's doing 
something really special.  He's welcome to do that, but I hope people 
realize what's actually going on when his bug fixes take five times 
longer than they need to.


 The generalization occured as a result of Georg Wrede's post in which he took
 Linus opinion and expanded it into a distaste for debuggers in general.


Aye.  "Real men don't use debuggers."  Personally, I can't relate to 
Georg's comment about how not using a debugger forces you to think about 
the problem in a different way.  But then I don't use the bulk of the 
fancier features provided by debuggers these days either, so perhaps 
that's part of the reason.  And with the state of things in D, I haven't 
used a debugger here at all :-p


Sean
Feb 25 2006
parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:

 Sean Kelly says...

 Georg Wrede wrote:
 

 Now, D is IMHO an excellent First Language. And some people
 really seem to find debuggers useful. Personally I never use
 them, because I find myself distracted and concentrating on the
 debugger instead of thinking of the problem.
 
 With D, let folks have debuggers if they want. But to become a
 real programmer, one should learn to bike without the baby
 wheels.


 
 Debuggers become quite useful in team environments where you
 didn't necessarily write a lot of the code in the program.
 Particularly if it's an old program where DBC and similar
 approaches simply aren't feasible because the app was designed
 with the expectation that invalid parameters should be swallowed.
 Sure I could still work out in my head how the thing is working,
 but if the system is alreadying held together by spit and
 bubblegum it may take quite a while to accomplish.  I think
 Linus' comments are valid for some portion of the software
 community, but not necessarily all of it.


 
 I agree, Sean.  But looking over the article again, I have to
 observe that Linus was quite specific about his opinion as it
 applied to /kernel/ debuggers.  He doesn't seem to have given an
 opinion on the use of debuggers in general.  Thus, I may have
 overeacted about his opinion, though I still disliked his manner (I
 haven't the experience to counter his opinion about kernel
 debuggers).


 
 I realized that later as well.  But I still disagree with Linus.  It
 seems like he's creating an artificially high barrier for entry in
 hopes that it will filter out some of the people he'd rather not work
 with, and to allow him to blame the inherent difficulty of kernel
 programming when someone requests a feature he doesn't want to
 implement.


Ever since before he went to the net about writing the OS, he was 
surrounded by a lot of friendly guys, not all of whom [how should I put 
this] were too comfortable with deep abstractions or hard-core 
concurrency issues.

Problem was, from day one, that these guys wanted so bad to help, but 
the code they wrote wasn't worth the effort of trying to understand the 
spaghetti inside. At the same time, some of them were disappointed when 
after the great effort they had seen, none of their code made it in. And 
some other guys just pass by, hear about this for the first time, and 
off-hand send Linus 30 lines of C, making Linus yell out of excitement. 
It's so wrong, ain't it?

Already at that time there were rumors that Linus accepts code more from 
'cool guys' than from his own friends.

So by this time, he's thoroughly fed-up with that kind of crap. What 
could he possibly say to make folks believe it's the code itself, and 
its merits and nothing else?


 But Linus has both the right to choose or reject whomever
 he wants as a co-developer, and the right to say "no" to anyone he
 chooses.  Upon reflection, it seems like Linus has simply constructed
 a situation that allows him to avoid confrontation and to make him
 feel like he's doing something really special.


He's not one of those ego-guys. (Ego-guys in my book being Larry Ellison 
of Oracle, Richard Stallman of FSF, etc. Exemplary non-ego-guys being 
(surprise!) Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Bourne of unix sh fame, etc.)

So "to make him feel like he's doing something special" doesn't apply to 
Linus. Then again "constructed a situation that allows him to avoid 
confrontation" definitely applies to Linus.

By this time, he's not even trying to fend off accusations of egotism, 
nepotism, you name it. It's a lot easier to proclaim wide and loud that 
he's an asshole, an impossible being, and a capricious dictator.

That way he gets at least some room to breathe.

Besides, when did one ever see a real asshole doing anything else than 
cover up _being_ an asshole? Let alone "admitting" it publicly.


 He's welcome to do
 that, but I hope people realize what's actually going on when his bug
 fixes take five times longer than they need to.


(Wish I had something to say about that, but I don't.)


 The generalization occured as a result of Georg Wrede's post in
 which he took Linus opinion and expanded it into a distaste for
 debuggers in general.




Aww, I was trying to make it not come out like that. I haven't anything 
against debuggers, it's just that I personally can't find them useful 
enough given my particular "brain anatomy". And I do see why it's 
important that kernel patches get submitted by Real Programmers only -- 
or we'll have to wait for bug fixes to take even longer.

(Suppose D gets as well known as Linux. Then it might happen that 
Walter's postman has to get a big truck for the fan mail and the 
Friendly and Helpful Patches. And he'll get some 2000 patches every day 
by email, not counting fan mail, folks asking for favors, and the usual 
crap.)


 Aye.  "Real men don't use debuggers."  Personally, I can't relate to
 Georg's comment about how not using a debugger forces you to think
 about the problem in a different way.  But then I don't use the bulk
 of the fancier features provided by debuggers these days either, so
 perhaps that's part of the reason.  And with the state of things in
 D, I haven't used a debugger here at all :-p


Heh, so D is making us all into Real Men! I kind of like that! :-)
Feb 25 2006
parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 Sean Kelly wrote:
 
 Problem was, from day one, that these guys wanted so bad to help, but 
 the code they wrote wasn't worth the effort of trying to understand the 
 spaghetti inside. At the same time, some of them were disappointed when 
 after the great effort they had seen, none of their code made it in. And 
 some other guys just pass by, hear about this for the first time, and 
 off-hand send Linus 30 lines of C, making Linus yell out of excitement. 
 It's so wrong, ain't it?


It's definitely a tough situation to be in.  I've thought about this 
situation even with respect to Ares (mostly speculatively, given that 
it's a tiny project) and I don't know that there's any way to make 
everyone happy.  So I can definitely sympathize with Linus if this was a 
motivating factor.


 But Linus has both the right to choose or reject whomever
 he wants as a co-developer, and the right to say "no" to anyone he
 chooses.  Upon reflection, it seems like Linus has simply constructed
 a situation that allows him to avoid confrontation and to make him
 feel like he's doing something really special.


 
 He's not one of those ego-guys. (Ego-guys in my book being Larry Ellison 
 of Oracle, Richard Stallman of FSF, etc. Exemplary non-ego-guys being 
 (surprise!) Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Bourne of unix sh fame, etc.)
 
 So "to make him feel like he's doing something special" doesn't apply to 
 Linus.


I didn't really mean it in that way so much as that I had a vague 
impression that Linus is somewhat insecure in the way that a lot of 
geeks are.  But I know hardly anything about the man so it was a shot in 
the dark :-)


 He's welcome to do
 that, but I hope people realize what's actually going on when his bug
 fixes take five times longer than they need to.


 
 (Wish I had something to say about that, but I don't.)


And I might be completely off the mark.  When you're as familiar with 
the code as Linus probably is with the Linux kernel, debuggers are often 
simply unnecessary.  But they're a great tool to have available just in 
case.


 Heh, so D is making us all into Real Men! I kind of like that! :-)


"The D Programming Language - Puts Hair on Your Chest" might be a bit of 
a put-off for the women here ;-)


Sean
Feb 25 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Chris Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
David Rasmussen wrote:

 Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?


Not yet.  There have been plugins and hacks that added support to some IDE's,
but I'm 
afraid I don't know any of them directly (I've just been using a highlighting
editor and a 
console).  I do know D highlighting and folding is standard in Kate, but
otherwise... *shrug?*

There /are/ a couple of projects working to create IDE's for D, though, and
they look 
promising.  So, give it a few more months, and we might be rocking.  :)


 Are there IDEs out there that even come with D preinstalled?


Other than Kate's module, I don't think so.


 Is there a debugger for D? And a profiler?


Debugger: if it supports DWARF3, it will work for you, on Linux.  For Win32,
general 
concensus seems to be to use an older version of windbg.

Profiler: Yes, built into DMD.  Compile with the '-profile' switch and just run
your 
program.  You can also use the '-cov' switch to compile your program with code
coverage 
analysis.


 Is there an IDE that comes with D, a debugger for D and a profiler for D?


Not /yet/.

-- Chris Nicholson-Sauls
Feb 23 2006
prev sibling parent Tom S <h3r3tic remove.mat.uni.torun.pl> writes:
David Rasmussen wrote:

 Are there IDEs out there that support D natively?


I'm happy with Elephant: http://trac.dsource.org/projects/elephant/


-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d-pu s+: a-->----- C+++$>++++ UL P+ L+ E--- W++ N++ o? K? w++ !O 
!M V? PS- PE- Y PGP t 5 X? R tv-- b DI- D+ G e>+++ h>++ !r !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Tomasz Stachowiak  /+ a.k.a. h3r3tic +/
Feb 23 2006