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digitalmars.D - Python integration?

reply David Rushby <David_member pathlink.com> writes:
Does anyone know what has become of the D-ification of the Python C API by
Justin Calvarese?  All of the links I can find to it are dead:
http://www.scratch-ware.net/D
http://www.scratch-ware.net/dfiles

Thanks.
Oct 16 2005
parent reply J C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
In article <diu147$23nr$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rushby says...

Does anyone know what has become of the D-ification of the Python C API by
Justin Calvarese?  All of the links I can find to it are dead:
http://www.scratch-ware.net/D
http://www.scratch-ware.net/dfiles

Thanks.


Actually, it's Deja Augustine's project. I haven't been involved with any of his
projects. I've just made an effort to figure out where they went when the links
have gone dead. It looks like he might not even have a website anymore except
for http://mywebspace.wisc.edu/daaugustine/, but I can't find the Python project
there.

I suspect I have the files from his Python project saved on a CD somewhere. Do
you want me to try and find them sometime?

jcc7
Oct 16 2005
parent reply David Rushby <David_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <diu68p$27is$1 digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...

 I suspect I have the files from his Python project saved on a CD 
 somewhere. Do you want me to try and find them sometime?


I'd appreciate that.

I just e-mailed the only address I could find for Deja, and got a delivery
failure notice.

---

FYI, I'm searching for a language that I can use to write high-complexity and
reasonably high-performance extensions for Python.

C works fine for simple extensions or for implementing new Python types that
perform a few accelerated operations under the hood, but I find C's limited
facilities for abstraction a problem when the complexity rises beyond a certain
threshold.

C++, which I've used for one such high-complexity extension, is more trouble
than it's worth.  When I give up the seamless integration with Python that C
provides, I'd like more of a payoff than the boatload of half-measures and
gratuitous complexity that is C++.

Right now, the major contenders are D, Dylan, and OCaml.

For the task of writing Python extensions, D appears to be the most appropriate
contender.  D has the best performance and C integration of the three, and of
course the programming paradigm it encourages is a less radical departure from
the imperative mainstream of object-oriented languages.  I'm worried about the
native code generator not being open source, though.  I can understand why
Walter's chosen that path, but I wonder about the impact on the timeliness of
bug fixes, as well as on portability.

From an aesthetic perspective, I like Dylan best, though its execution
efficiency isn't quite up to par with D or OCaml.  Dylan feels halfway between
Python and Common Lisp, with optional static typing available when good
execution efficiency is necessary.  Once the superficialities are set aside,
Dylan reminds me of what Python might have been if it had made some concessions
to high execution efficiency instead of unconditionally prioritizing programmer
productivity.  Generic functions and multiple dispatch instead of method
containment and single dispatch look intriguingly flexible, and limited types
could be a real boon.  But the Dylan community is tiny and hasn't been very
responsive to my inquiries.

I'm impressed by OCaml's fusion of the functional and object-oriented paradigms
without sacrificing execution efficiency.  However, it's pretty obvious that
OCaml is meant to be programmed in a functional style, with the imperative style
resorted to only when maximal efficiency is necessary.  My entire purpose in
writing extensions to Python is usually efficiency, so I expect that OCaml
wouldn't be a very comfortable fit for the task.

If the folks on this list have any feedback, I'd welcome it.
Oct 16 2005
next sibling parent "Walter Bright" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"David Rushby" <David_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:diub0e$2bf7$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 For the task of writing Python extensions, D appears to be the most


appropriate

 contender.  D has the best performance and C integration of the three, and


of

 course the programming paradigm it encourages is a less radical departure


from

 the imperative mainstream of object-oriented languages.  I'm worried about


the

 native code generator not being open source, though.  I can understand why
 Walter's chosen that path, but I wonder about the impact on the timeliness


of

 bug fixes, as well as on portability.


There's a 100% open source D compiler, gdc, prepared by David Friedman.
Ports of it exist for a variety of popular platforms.

As for DMD's code generator, it is the same as used for DMC and DMC++. It's
been developed and debugged for over 20 years now, and it works.
Occaisionally a bug does crop up in it, but 99% of the time it's in new code
added to support D things.
Oct 16 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
In article <diub0e$2bf7$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rushby says...

In article <diu68p$27is$1 digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...

 I suspect I have the files from his Python project saved on a CD 
 somewhere. Do you want me to try and find them sometime?


I'd appreciate that.


Okay, it wasn't a problem finding it. I suspect it's the most recent file, but I
don't think he's worked on it in a while. I don't know if it's what you're
looking for. I think it's just a header that allows using Python from D. Since
it's old it might need updating to work with recent versions of D (I didn't
bother to check it at all).

Since I don't know you e-mail address, I just uploaded it:
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/pythond/index.html

jcc7
Oct 16 2005
parent David Rushby <David_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <diuvg5$rvg$1 digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...

Okay, it wasn't a problem finding it. I suspect it's the most recent file, but I
don't think he's worked on it in a while.


Yes, it's just a D header file for the Python/C API, which is what I expected.

I haven't decided yet whether I'll pursue Dylan or D, so I'm not sure I'll
follow up on this, but thank you very much for finding it.
Oct 17 2005
prev sibling parent Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <diub0e$2bf7$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Rushby says...

In article <diu68p$27is$1 digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...

 I suspect I have the files from his Python project saved on a CD 
 somewhere. Do you want me to try and find them sometime?


I'd appreciate that.

I just e-mailed the only address I could find for Deja, and got a delivery
failure notice.

---


For the task of writing Python extensions, D appears to be the most appropriate
contender.  D has the best performance and C integration of the three, and of
course the programming paradigm it encourages is a less radical departure from


I'm thinking DMD will get even faster sooner rather than later - there are some
optimizations that (even I can tell) could be done but probably haven't been
because the compiler and lang. spec. ideally would be static (which I don't
think is all that far off either) to avoid re-work.


the imperative mainstream of object-oriented languages.  I'm worried about the
native code generator not being open source, though.  I can understand why
Walter's chosen that path, but I wonder about the impact on the timeliness of
bug fixes, as well as on portability.


Realistically, I've personally never heard of someone actually hacking GCC to
fix a bug that they wouldn't be better off reporting and waiting for an
experienced maintainer to fix while they work around the problem. So I'm
wondering if that is really a valid concern?

DMD releases are frequent and if you provide a good, minimal example of a
show-stopping bug, then chances are it will be fixed very quickly - quicker than
GCC from what I've seen. Plus the DMD code generator is very mature.

The backend portability may be an issue right now, though. For some of that,
there is GDC available here: http://home.earthlink.net/~dvdfrdmn/d/

HTH.
Oct 17 2005