• imr1984 (7/7) May 29 2005 Hi
• Derek Parnell (6/16) May 29 2005 What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with ...
• Lars Ivar Igesund (3/18) May 29 2005 You're just to damn structured when writing code ;)
• bobef (11/23) May 29 2005 I care.
• Jarrett Billingsley (13/22) May 29 2005 I would love to have proper debugging info, but unless we get a proper
• clayasaurus (5/18) May 29 2005 I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be
• Charlie (8/30) May 29 2005 Hmm good point , but D definetly needs 100% debug info. And since D is ...
• Andrew Fedoniouk (7/16) May 29 2005 I am with you,
• bobef (8/14) May 29 2005 I think more important question is what we want to achieve by attracting
• Andrew Fedoniouk (12/33) May 29 2005 :) Ask Walter and Kris for what for, they think, Java-to-D is needed.
• bobef (10/18) May 29 2005 People get paid when they expect to get money... D community is kind-a-o...
• Andrew Fedoniouk (16/40) May 29 2005 I agree with you. it is slow because it is not written in D :)
• Andrew Fedoniouk (82/86) May 29 2005 Some personal and self-critical remarks.
• Charlie (18/104) May 30 2005 Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :). I don't want to imp...
• Kris (28/162) May 30 2005 This topic is hilarious! :-)
• Andrew Fedoniouk (7/188) May 30 2005 :))) It remebers me Russian joke :
• Ilya Zaitseff (3/110) May 30 2005 sad but true :)

imr1984 <imr1984_member pathlink.com> writes:

Hi

Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
much (dare I say it) useless.

When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:

 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
29/05/2005 9:16:55 PM

Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:

Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not
 being able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing
 more. But frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs
 properly, D is pretty much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

 
 What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D.
 

You're just to damn structured when writing code ;)

Lars Ivar Igesund

bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <15l7g6p9fwn6f.3wosvc27mgzn.dlg 40tude.net>, Derek Parnell says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:

 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares?


I care.

As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.


You are wrong. It is totaly useful. I am doing this app
(http://www.lessequal.com/akide) and last few days I'm dealin with stuff like
shell extensions (this COM is nonsense) and htmlhelp which I am doing in C++. I
forgot what pain was the work with char*-s and realloc... D strings/arrays is
breeze. And not only the arrays... D is The language for me and I belive many
other people from this community...

 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D.

Well I needed one. It could save me a lot of time and headaches... But I'm doing
fine without it...

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:

"imr1984" <imr1984_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7c5r0$2b7f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not 
 being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing 
 more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is 
 pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

I would love to have proper debugging info, but unless we get a proper 
IDE/debugger, it won't be of much use.  I use VC++ to step through my D 
progs and look at some variables (basic types work fine).  This of course 
can't be extended to look at some parts of D as it's hard-coded to see C++ 
stuff (like classes).  I suppose I could use yet _another_ command-line 
utility (sometimes using D feels like I've stepped back in time..) like gdb, 
but I'm really not up to using another tool.

In the meantime, I'm happy.  It might take me a little longer to debug 
stuff, but for the most part, my code is perfect so I don't need it ;) jk. 
I've gotten pretty quick with printlining/logging, and very rarely do I need 
stepthru, and if I do, I can usually do it in VC++. 

clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:

imr1984 wrote:
 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.
 
 
 

I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be 
hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the 
language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts, 
contracts, and writef ;)

"Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> writes:

 I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be
 hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the
 language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts,
 contracts, and writef ;)

Hmm good point , but D definetly needs 100% debug info.  And since D is a
new language , with features found nowhere else , a debug API would be super
awesome also.


"clayasaurus" <clayasaurus gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7cr8g$2rsq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 imr1984 wrote:
 Hi

 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider


not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing


more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is


pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

 I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be
 hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the
 language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts,
 contracts, and writef ;)

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:

 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not 
 being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing 
 more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is 
 pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

I am with you,

correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly
will attract developers and decision makers many times
more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool.

I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging


Andrew. 

bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <d7d64h$522$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
I am with you,

correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly
will attract developers and decision makers many times
more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool.

I think more important question is what we want to achieve by attracting
developers and decision makers?

I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging


Do you really believe any community will ever be able for to make an IDE more
attractive than microsoft's one. I think in next version it will warn you that
it is best to disconnect your keyboard to save resources because their
'programming' will be drag-n-drop only where it is needed because in most cases
you can just choose a template!

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:

"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7d749$5u9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <d7d64h$522$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
I am with you,

correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly
will attract developers and decision makers many times
more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool.

 I think more important question is what we want to achieve by attracting
 developers and decision makers?

:) Ask Walter and Kris for what for, they think, Java-to-D is needed.

I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging


 Do you really believe any community will ever be able for to make an IDE 
 more
 attractive than microsoft's one. I think in next version it will warn you 
 that
 it is best to disconnect your keyboard to save resources because their
 'programming' will be drag-n-drop only where it is needed because in most 
 cases
 you can just choose a template!

public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example.
But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority -
mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job.

The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g.
the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains
(used to be Russian software company - now international)
and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat
MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/

Andrew.

bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <d7d8ar$73m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example.
But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority -
mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job.

People get paid when they expect to get money... D community is kind-a-open
source :)

The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g.
the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains
(used to be Russian software company - now international)
and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat
MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/

Don't get me wrong. I don't like ms's ide (after version 6). But people like
drag-n-drop and they will always prefer it ;] (this is about attracting
developers). Also I tried intellij. It is great but is more than slow (like any
other java app) and the status bar says it eats 50megs of memory just by
starting it ;]

offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on earth
and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic :)

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:

"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7d8up$7o0$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <d7d8ar$73m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example.
But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority -
mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job.

 People get paid when they expect to get money... D community is 
 kind-a-open
 source :)

The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g.
the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains
(used to be Russian software company - now international)
and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat
MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/

 Don't get me wrong. I don't like ms's ide (after version 6). But people 
 like
 drag-n-drop and they will always prefer it ;] (this is about attracting
 developers). Also I tried intellij. It is great but is more than slow 
 (like any
 other java app) and the status bar says it eats 50megs of memory just by
 starting it ;]

I agree with you. it is slow because it is not written in D :)

And MS IDEs after VS 6 developed by the team
was making MS VisualJ IDE initially, afaik.
Java ruins everything :) People in Java world get used to
slowness and enormous memory consumptions.

 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on 
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic 
 :)

:) Gotcha!

More offtopic:
There is no pure Computer Science speciality in Russian education system.
Programming is always a part of something else (at least used to be so)
- some other scientific or engeneering speciality.
So there are no bakeries making Java programmers in half of the year. :)
E.g. if you know principles of control systems of ballistic missiles then
you can design GUI toolkits two per year, joke ;).

Andrew.

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:

 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on 
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic 
 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks.

If  you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and
wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed
- know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus
alive.
You may ask him to write you an application calculating
exact position of electron at any given moment of time.
Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does
not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE
are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get
working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause
in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver
Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic
thing - it will use  neural nets algorithms and all
possible bells and whistles. And without documentation.

:)

And following sacred knowledge will also help:

1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help - they 
easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already tried 
every single program in this field before.

2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or 
buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for $5 
bucks in every major city in Russia.

3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software 
development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available - 
it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take your 
computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember the 
jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They never 
forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in 
their computers.

5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no 
more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay 
slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both old 
and new computer into a LAN.

6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the processor 
codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They 
usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard 
layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between A 
and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys 
apart?".

8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using 
them.

9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft compilers 
only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet. 
They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood. 
Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate Windows 
and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on 
Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more often 
referred to as "users".

14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program is 
written personally and from scratch.

15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on 
their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch mode.

16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous weapon in 
their fast hands.

17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their 
programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention 
whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring profit 
by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not 
interfering with anything.

20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the world 
that amounts to what they are really worth.

21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that 
knows everything?

22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even 
working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will 
accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on inspiration, 
sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as 
soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they drop 
on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every 
program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient 
time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.

"Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> writes:

Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to imply
that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to space
first :P.

Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

Charlie


"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers



on
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



offtopic
 :)


 Some personal and self-critical remarks.

 If  you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and
 wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed
 - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus
 alive.
 You may ask him to write you an application calculating
 exact position of electron at any given moment of time.
 Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does
 not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE
 are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get
 working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause
 in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver
 Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic
 thing - it will use  neural nets algorithms and all
 possible bells and whistles. And without documentation.

 :)

 And following sacred knowledge will also help:

 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help - they
 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

tried
 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or
 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for $5
 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

your
 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember the
 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

never
 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in
 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both

old
 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the processor
 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard
 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between A
 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft compilers
 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate Windows
 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

often
 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program is
 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on
 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch mode.

 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous weapon

in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring profit
 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not
 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

world
 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

inspiration,
 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as
 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they drop
 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient
 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.

"Kris" <fu bar.com> writes:

This topic is hilarious! :-)

I've fired three of Andrew's "programicus creatures". The root reasons were:
outright laziness (do nothing constructive for months upon end), thorough
incompentence (perhaps the most dysfunctional code I've had the displeasure
to witness), and repeated drunkenness at the office.

Funny! <g>



"Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> wrote in message
news:d7fnq6$2nuj$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to imply
 that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
 all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to

space
 first :P.

 Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

 Charlie


 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers



 on
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



 offtopic
 :)


 Some personal and self-critical remarks.

 If  you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and
 wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed
 - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus
 alive.
 You may ask him to write you an application calculating
 exact position of electron at any given moment of time.
 Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does
 not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE
 are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get
 working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause
 in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver
 Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic
 thing - it will use  neural nets algorithms and all
 possible bells and whistles. And without documentation.

 :)

 And following sacred knowledge will also help:

 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help -


they
 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

 tried
 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it


or
 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for


$5
 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

 your
 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember


the
 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

 never
 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up


in
 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both

 old
 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the


processor
 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian


keyboard
 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between


A
 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft


compilers
 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate


Windows
 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

 often
 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program


is
 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake


on
 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch


mode.
 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous


weapon
 in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring


profit
 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by


not
 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

 world
 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

 inspiration,
 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run


as
 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they dr


op
 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly


inconvenient
 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:

"Kris" <fu bar.com> wrote in message news:d7fqqd$2qjc$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 This topic is hilarious! :-)

 I've fired three of Andrew's "programicus creatures". The root reasons 
 were:
 outright laziness (do nothing constructive for months upon end), thorough
 incompentence (perhaps the most dysfunctional code I've had the 
 displeasure
 to witness), and repeated drunkenness at the office.

:))) It remebers me Russian joke :

"What???! You don't like cats???!!! You just don't know
of how to cook them properly!!!"

Joke of course.

"drunkenness" ... They should be fired immediately without any
discussion.

 "Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> wrote in message
 news:d7fnq6$2nuj$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to 
 imply
 that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
 all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to

 space
 first :P.

 Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

 Charlie


 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best 
 developers



 on
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



 offtopic
 :)


 Some personal and self-critical remarks.

 If  you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and
 wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed
 - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus
 alive.
 You may ask him to write you an application calculating
 exact position of electron at any given moment of time.
 Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does
 not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE
 are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get
 working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause
 in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver
 Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic
 thing - it will use  neural nets algorithms and all
 possible bells and whistles. And without documentation.

 :)

 And following sacred knowledge will also help:

 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help -


 they
 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

 tried
 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it


 or
 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for


 $5
 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools 
 available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

 your
 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember


 the
 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

 never
 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up


 in
 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are 
 no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free 
 bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie 
 both

 old
 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the


 processor
 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian


 keyboard
 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is 
 between


 A
 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep 
 using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft


 compilers
 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the 
 Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate


 Windows
 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

 often
 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program


 is
 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake


 on
 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch


 mode.
 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous


 weapon
 in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring


 profit
 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by


 not
 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

 world
 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass 
 that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

 inspiration,
 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run


 as
 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they 
 dr


 op
 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly


 inconvenient
 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.


 

"Ilya Zaitseff" <sark7 mail333.com> writes:

sad but true :)

On Mon, 30 May 2005 09:46:45 +1100, Andrew Fedoniouk  
<news terrainformatica.com> wrote:

 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers  
 on
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a  
 offtopic
 :)


 Some personal and self-critical remarks.

 If  you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and
 wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed
 - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus
 alive.
 You may ask him to write you an application calculating
 exact position of electron at any given moment of time.
 Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does
 not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE
 are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get
 working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause
 in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver
 Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic
 thing - it will use  neural nets algorithms and all
 possible bells and whistles. And without documentation.

 :)

 And following sacred knowledge will also help:

 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help -  
 they
 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already  
 tried
 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or
 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for  
 $5
 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take  
 your
 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember  
 the
 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They  
 never
 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in
 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both  
 old
 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the  
 processor
 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard
 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between  
 A
 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft  
 compilers
 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate  
 Windows
 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more  
 often
 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program  
 is
 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on
 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch  
 mode.

 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous  
 weapon in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring  
 profit
 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not
 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the  
 world
 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on  
 inspiration,
 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as
 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they  
 drop
 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient
 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.