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D.gnu - Phobos License

reply Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com writes:
Hello,
I wondered if someone (Walter) could clarify the licensing for the Phobos
library components of the D distribution.  It's clear how the generously donated
front-end to the compiler is licensed, and that the compiler components not
included are under a proprietary license, but I was not clear on Phobos - esp.
because it is being included in the gcc distribution.  I'm very interested in D
but it appears that the Phobos library is essential to any usable implementation
and I'm just not sure how it is being licensed.  

Tbanks..
May 04 2004
parent reply "Bruno A. Costa" <bruno codata.com.br> writes:
Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com wrote:


 Hello,
 I wondered if someone (Walter) could clarify the licensing for the Phobos
 library components of the D distribution.  It's clear how the generously
 donated front-end to the compiler is licensed, and that the compiler
 components not included are under a proprietary license, but I was not
 clear on Phobos - esp.
 because it is being included in the gcc distribution.  I'm very interested
 in D but it appears that the Phobos library is essential to any usable
 implementation and I'm just not sure how it is being licensed.
 
 Tbanks..


Hi,

This is what Ant (developer of DUI) spoke about this problem:

-----------------------------------------------------------
"isn't phobos glt/artistic?

As a preventive measure I delete all Synesis source code from
my machine.
Luckally I never used any and my project (DUI and leds) still
compile with the new version of phobos.

My problem is that in the future some Synesis might see
some similarities on their code and mine and claim ownership
of something I wrote...
Ok here is the complete message I wrote last night:

*** original complete message ***

IANAL so I might be going overboard for nothing...

please enlighten me.

from phobos.loader:

 *              (ii) Any derived versions of this software (howsoever modified)
 *              remain the sole property of Synesis Software.


Can we live with this?
I can not.

I can't admit that in the future Synesis claims ownership of some thing I
wrote because it might have some similarities.
With the current IP and patent problems I can not afford to look at code
with that type of license at least until I discuss this with my lawyer.

As preventive mesuares:
I just deleted all source code from Synesis from my computer.
I deleted any files on the phobos src tree that contained the string 
"ynesis" (except std/mmfile.d that doesn't contain the Synesis license)
and all my old (previous versions) dmd.zip files.
and I deleted the recent downloaded dmd.zip for dmd 0.86

Matthew, if there is another procedure to follow by someone that
doesn't agree with the Synesis license let me know.

phobos still compiles (after changes to linux.mak) and DUI and leds
still compile and run with the new phobos.

Walter, can you distribute phobos without the source code from Synesis?
Acording to some recente reading from growklaw If one has access to 
some code and produces something similar it's assumed that it is a copy
even if the author claims never had look to the code
(for the US I guess).

"header" files should be OK unless the ridiculous claim SCO made on
linux .h files is sanctioned by the courts.

Thanks,

Ant"

-------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, he removed all bad licensed sources from phobos and it still
compile his softwares (DUI and LEDS).

I think that if we want a free/open library, the best way is to remove the
problematic sources or, preferably, the authors of that code change to a
Free licence.

Bruno.
May 04 2004
parent reply Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com writes:
This is helpful, thank you, although for what it is worth I took a look at the
Synesis license and it appears to me to be a pretty standard clause - derived
has a particular meaning which is in many such licenses - consult an attorney if
you are concerned and all that.  What I was concerned about were the areas under
dmd/src/phobos/internal and dmd/src/phobos/std - there is a mix of things which
are copyright digital mars all rights reserved, some things copyrighted by
others and clearly licensed, and some with no notices whatsoever.  Under the
dmd/src/dmd area things are clearly marked - but dmd/src/phobos is not within
that folder and does not have clear indications regarding license in the way
that the dmd/src/dmd area does.  The license at the higher dmd level is clearly
restrictive.  I certainly respect Walter and other's right to distribute their
work as they see fit - but I cannot see being able to make use of D at present
without those areas of the tree, and technically I do not believe it is open
sourced at this point, which is one of the requirements that I have.  What I am
looking for is clarification on that, I would like to get into the language and
make use of it, but do not see that as worthwhile unless the phobos lib is
clearly open.  It may be that I'm being too picky - forgive me if so - but it
also may be that this is the intent (to restrictively license portions of
phobos) and I wish to be clear on that before investing time and effort into
working with the language.

In article <c785qi$21b$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno A. Costa says...

Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com wrote:


 Hello,
 I wondered if someone (Walter) could clarify the licensing for the Phobos
 library components of the D distribution.  It's clear how the generously
 donated front-end to the compiler is licensed, and that the compiler
 components not included are under a proprietary license, but I was not
 clear on Phobos - esp.
 because it is being included in the gcc distribution.  I'm very interested
 in D but it appears that the Phobos library is essential to any usable
 implementation and I'm just not sure how it is being licensed.
 
 Tbanks..


Hi,

This is what Ant (developer of DUI) spoke about this problem:

-----------------------------------------------------------
"isn't phobos glt/artistic?

As a preventive measure I delete all Synesis source code from
my machine.
Luckally I never used any and my project (DUI and leds) still
compile with the new version of phobos.

My problem is that in the future some Synesis might see
some similarities on their code and mine and claim ownership
of something I wrote...
Ok here is the complete message I wrote last night:

*** original complete message ***

IANAL so I might be going overboard for nothing...

please enlighten me.

from phobos.loader:

 *              (ii) Any derived versions of this software (howsoever modified)
 *              remain the sole property of Synesis Software.


Can we live with this?
I can not.

I can't admit that in the future Synesis claims ownership of some thing I
wrote because it might have some similarities.
With the current IP and patent problems I can not afford to look at code
with that type of license at least until I discuss this with my lawyer.

As preventive mesuares:
I just deleted all source code from Synesis from my computer.
I deleted any files on the phobos src tree that contained the string 
"ynesis" (except std/mmfile.d that doesn't contain the Synesis license)
and all my old (previous versions) dmd.zip files.
and I deleted the recent downloaded dmd.zip for dmd 0.86

Matthew, if there is another procedure to follow by someone that
doesn't agree with the Synesis license let me know.

phobos still compiles (after changes to linux.mak) and DUI and leds
still compile and run with the new phobos.

Walter, can you distribute phobos without the source code from Synesis?
Acording to some recente reading from growklaw If one has access to 
some code and produces something similar it's assumed that it is a copy
even if the author claims never had look to the code
(for the US I guess).

"header" files should be OK unless the ridiculous claim SCO made on
linux .h files is sanctioned by the courts.

Thanks,

Ant"

-------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, he removed all bad licensed sources from phobos and it still
compile his softwares (DUI and LEDS).

I think that if we want a free/open library, the best way is to remove the
problematic sources or, preferably, the authors of that code change to a
Free licence.

Bruno.
May 04 2004
parent reply "Bruno A. Costa" <bruno codata.com.br> writes:
You should share your ideas in the digitalmars.D newsgroup. There are most
of the users. And some (as me) think that the license is a real problem in
the general acceptance of D. I am new in D, and it is a fantastic
programming language, but without a free licence I don't think D becomes
widely used so soon.

Bruno.


Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com wrote:


 This is helpful, thank you, although for what it is worth I took a look at
 the Synesis license and it appears to me to be a pretty standard clause -
 derived has a particular meaning which is in many such licenses - consult
 an attorney if
 you are concerned and all that.  What I was concerned about were the areas
 under dmd/src/phobos/internal and dmd/src/phobos/std - there is a mix of
 things which are copyright digital mars all rights reserved, some things
 copyrighted by
 others and clearly licensed, and some with no notices whatsoever.  Under
 the dmd/src/dmd area things are clearly marked - but dmd/src/phobos is not
 within that folder and does not have clear indications regarding license
 in the way
 that the dmd/src/dmd area does.  The license at the higher dmd level is
 clearly
 restrictive.  I certainly respect Walter and other's right to distribute
 their work as they see fit - but I cannot see being able to make use of D
 at present without those areas of the tree, and technically I do not
 believe it is open
 sourced at this point, which is one of the requirements that I have.  What
 I am looking for is clarification on that, I would like to get into the
 language and make use of it, but do not see that as worthwhile unless the
 phobos lib is
 clearly open.  It may be that I'm being too picky - forgive me if so - but
 it also may be that this is the intent (to restrictively license portions
 of phobos) and I wish to be clear on that before investing time and effort
 into working with the language.
 
 In article <c785qi$21b$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno A. Costa says...

Craig_Welch2 yahoo.com wrote:


 Hello,
 I wondered if someone (Walter) could clarify the licensing for the
 Phobos
 library components of the D distribution.  It's clear how the generously
 donated front-end to the compiler is licensed, and that the compiler
 components not included are under a proprietary license, but I was not
 clear on Phobos - esp.
 because it is being included in the gcc distribution.  I'm very
 interested in D but it appears that the Phobos library is essential to
 any usable implementation and I'm just not sure how it is being
 licensed.
 
 Tbanks..


Hi,

This is what Ant (developer of DUI) spoke about this problem:

-----------------------------------------------------------
"isn't phobos glt/artistic?

As a preventive measure I delete all Synesis source code from
my machine.
Luckally I never used any and my project (DUI and leds) still
compile with the new version of phobos.

My problem is that in the future some Synesis might see
some similarities on their code and mine and claim ownership
of something I wrote...
Ok here is the complete message I wrote last night:

*** original complete message ***

IANAL so I might be going overboard for nothing...

please enlighten me.

from phobos.loader:

*              (ii) Any derived versions of this software (howsoever
modified) *              remain the sole property of Synesis Software.


Can we live with this?
I can not.

I can't admit that in the future Synesis claims ownership of some thing I
wrote because it might have some similarities.
With the current IP and patent problems I can not afford to look at code
with that type of license at least until I discuss this with my lawyer.

As preventive mesuares:
I just deleted all source code from Synesis from my computer.
I deleted any files on the phobos src tree that contained the string
"ynesis" (except std/mmfile.d that doesn't contain the Synesis license)
and all my old (previous versions) dmd.zip files.
and I deleted the recent downloaded dmd.zip for dmd 0.86

Matthew, if there is another procedure to follow by someone that
doesn't agree with the Synesis license let me know.

phobos still compiles (after changes to linux.mak) and DUI and leds
still compile and run with the new phobos.

Walter, can you distribute phobos without the source code from Synesis?
Acording to some recente reading from growklaw If one has access to
some code and produces something similar it's assumed that it is a copy
even if the author claims never had look to the code
(for the US I guess).

"header" files should be OK unless the ridiculous claim SCO made on
linux .h files is sanctioned by the courts.

Thanks,

Ant"

-------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, he removed all bad licensed sources from phobos and it
still compile his softwares (DUI and LEDS).

I think that if we want a free/open library, the best way is to remove the
problematic sources or, preferably, the authors of that code change to a
Free licence.

Bruno.
May 04 2004
parent Pablo De Napoli <Pablo_member pathlink.com> writes:
I agree with you:  D is a fantastic  

programming language, but without a free


licence I don't think D becomes  

widely used so soon.  


  
In the message
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D.gnu/549  
  
Walter told us
(answering a similar question from myself) that  
"It should be under a dual
gpl/artistic license. I'll see about fixing it."  
  
I think it would be very
nice if Walter could fix this soon, since I would  
like to use D to develop
free software (and hopefully many people in the  
free software comunity would
love to do the same), but if the license of  
phobos is not clear, we cannot use
it.  
  
(since for example, GPL'ed code cannot be linked legally with code
under  
an incompatible license, for example propietary)  
  
Best regards,
Pablo De Nápoli  
pdenapo AT yahoo.com 
  
In article
<c78hd9$k34$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno A. Costa says...  

  
You should share


your ideas in the digitalmars.D newsgroup. There are most  

of the users. And


some (as me) think that the license is a real problem in  

the general


acceptance of D. I am new in D, and it is a fantastic  

programming language,


but without a free licence I don't think D becomes  

widely used so soon.  

Bruno.
May 06 2004