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D - Who D is Not For

reply Juarez Rudsatz <juarez correio.co> writes:
In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like excluding 
people what is not necessary at all.

See the comments bellow:


 Real time programming where latency must be guaranteed. 


The problem is the garbage colector. Or isn't? But there are no problem 
if someone make a real time gc. Simply let say "The D compiler and lib 
do not support real time yet.".


 Realistically, nobody is going to convert million line C or C++ 


programs into D, and since D does not compile unmodified C/C++ source 
code, D is not for legacy apps. (However, D supports legacy C APIs very 
well.) 

This paragraph could fit in another place better.


 Very small programs - a scripting or interpreted language like Python, 


ECMAscript, or Perl is likely more suitable. 

Why not very small programs ? A very small program doesnt need 
necessaryly a extra baggage like Perl, Python or etc. If I make a simple 
program for my use, I don't wanna install that in every machine...


 As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for 


beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to 
advanced programmers. 

Since D has killed the C "first time" problems ( strings, type 
enforcing, extensive use of pointers, ... ), it is a good choice as the 
Pascal or "pneumonic" BASIC. D has clear all concepts in structured and 
object oriented programming paradigms. And this contradicts some 
paragraphs before : "D is easy to learn, provides many capabilities to 
aid the programmer, and is well suited to aggressive compiler 
optimization technology".

As in Brazil : Sell your fish ! ( if it is good better yet! )

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jun 07 2002
next sibling parent "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
Some good points. I'll reevaluate that section. Thanks!

"Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...

 In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like excluding
 people what is not necessary at all.

 See the comments bellow:


 Real time programming where latency must be guaranteed.


 The problem is the garbage colector. Or isn't? But there are no problem
 if someone make a real time gc. Simply let say "The D compiler and lib
 do not support real time yet.".


 Realistically, nobody is going to convert million line C or C++


 programs into D, and since D does not compile unmodified C/C++ source
 code, D is not for legacy apps. (However, D supports legacy C APIs very
 well.)

 This paragraph could fit in another place better.


 Very small programs - a scripting or interpreted language like Python,


 ECMAscript, or Perl is likely more suitable.

 Why not very small programs ? A very small program doesnt need
 necessaryly a extra baggage like Perl, Python or etc. If I make a simple
 program for my use, I don't wanna install that in every machine...


 As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for


 beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to
 advanced programmers.

 Since D has killed the C "first time" problems ( strings, type
 enforcing, extensive use of pointers, ... ), it is a good choice as the
 Pascal or "pneumonic" BASIC. D has clear all concepts in structured and
 object oriented programming paradigms. And this contradicts some
 paragraphs before : "D is easy to learn, provides many capabilities to
 aid the programmer, and is well suited to aggressive compiler
 optimization technology".

 As in Brazil : Sell your fish ! ( if it is good better yet! )

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jun 07 2002
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Matthew Wilson" <matthewatd hotmail.com> writes:
Agreed. I have done some work on timing comparisons, and D marks up very
well in small applications, so why not let it?



"Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...

 In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like excluding
 people what is not necessary at all.

 See the comments bellow:


 Real time programming where latency must be guaranteed.


 The problem is the garbage colector. Or isn't? But there are no problem
 if someone make a real time gc. Simply let say "The D compiler and lib
 do not support real time yet.".


 Realistically, nobody is going to convert million line C or C++


 programs into D, and since D does not compile unmodified C/C++ source
 code, D is not for legacy apps. (However, D supports legacy C APIs very
 well.)

 This paragraph could fit in another place better.


 Very small programs - a scripting or interpreted language like Python,


 ECMAscript, or Perl is likely more suitable.

 Why not very small programs ? A very small program doesnt need
 necessaryly a extra baggage like Perl, Python or etc. If I make a simple
 program for my use, I don't wanna install that in every machine...


 As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for


 beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to
 advanced programmers.

 Since D has killed the C "first time" problems ( strings, type
 enforcing, extensive use of pointers, ... ), it is a good choice as the
 Pascal or "pneumonic" BASIC. D has clear all concepts in structured and
 object oriented programming paradigms. And this contradicts some
 paragraphs before : "D is easy to learn, provides many capabilities to
 aid the programmer, and is well suited to aggressive compiler
 optimization technology".

 As in Brazil : Sell your fish ! ( if it is good better yet! )

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jun 07 2002
parent "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Matthew Wilson" <matthewatd hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:adrhkb$1m3c$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Agreed. I have done some work on timing comparisons, and D marks up very
 well in small applications, so why not let it?


Good thing I did some work about a month ago speeding up the generated code
<g>.
Jun 07 2002
prev sibling parent reply "Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> writes:
"Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...

 In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like excluding
 people what is not necessary at all.

 See the comments bellow:


 Real time programming where latency must be guaranteed.


 The problem is the garbage colector. Or isn't? But there are no problem
 if someone make a real time gc. Simply let say "The D compiler and lib
 do not support real time yet.".


The garbage collector can be turned off and controlled pretty nicely.  In
the future perhaps we can even how often it runs and how long it can take.


 Realistically, nobody is going to convert million line C or C++


 programs into D, and since D does not compile unmodified C/C++ source
 code, D is not for legacy apps. (However, D supports legacy C APIs very
 well.)


The preprocessor doesn't compile, but a tool (a good editor macro) could
help automate the transition.

C is easy to port to D.  Easier than porting to Java (or BASIC!) probably.
I ported a small app in about 4 hours and I was still figuring out some D
basics (how to link!!) at the time.


 This paragraph could fit in another place better.


 Very small programs - a scripting or interpreted language like Python,


 ECMAscript, or Perl is likely more suitable.

 Why not very small programs ? A very small program doesnt need
 necessaryly a extra baggage like Perl, Python or etc. If I make a simple
 program for my use, I don't wanna install that in every machine...


The extensive Phobos library will make writing small programs a snap.  D
modules enable the compiler/linker to very easily strip unused code or data,
so they shouldn't unrealistically increase the size of a compiled app.  The
core RTL is usually small (the GC and some other language support stuff) and
the rest should get stripped if it isn't used.  So long as D's stream and
i/o modules don't get too big and intertwined I'd expect D apps to be small.


 As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for


 beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to
 advanced programmers.

 Since D has killed the C "first time" problems ( strings, type
 enforcing, extensive use of pointers, ... ), it is a good choice as the
 Pascal or "pneumonic" BASIC. D has clear all concepts in structured and
 object oriented programming paradigms. And this contradicts some
 paragraphs before : "D is easy to learn, provides many capabilities to
 aid the programmer, and is well suited to aggressive compiler
 optimization technology".


Yeah;  D is as simple as Pascal or BASIC and lacks many of their flaws, has
many more strengths.  And it's syntactically closer to the "workforce"


D will be an excellent language for beginners.

Some of the error messages are a bit cryptic at the moment; that makes
things a bit more difficult.


 As in Brazil : Sell your fish ! ( if it is good better yet! )


I take it you're from Brazil.  ;)
Jun 07 2002
parent reply "Andrew" <crxace13 comcast.net> writes:
"Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ads0b4$24hq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
| "Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
| news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...
| > In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
| > I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like
excluding

| D will be an excellent language for beginners.
|

Which is exactly why I am choosing to learn to program with "D"
rather than C++.  Now if there were only some tutorials!!!
Jun 08 2002
next sibling parent reply "Matthew Wilson" <dmd synesis.com.au> writes:
Sounds like a magazine column to me ... "Notes from a beginner on the
front-line"

"Andrew" <crxace13 comcast.net> wrote in message
news:adsrib$a94$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> wrote in message
 news:ads0b4$24hq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 | "Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
 | news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...
 | > In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 | > I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like
 excluding

 | D will be an excellent language for beginners.
 |

 Which is exactly why I am choosing to learn to program with "D"
 rather than C++.  Now if there were only some tutorials!!!
Jun 08 2002
parent reply "OddesE" <OddesE_XYZ hotmail.com> writes:
"Matthew Wilson" <dmd synesis.com.au> wrote in message
news:adsuct$d3d$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Sounds like a magazine column to me ... "Notes from a beginner on the
 front-line"

 "Andrew" <crxace13 comcast.net> wrote in message
 news:adsrib$a94$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> wrote in message
 news:ads0b4$24hq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 | "Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
 | news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...
 | > In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 | > I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like
 excluding

 | D will be an excellent language for beginners.
 |

 Which is exactly why I am choosing to learn to program with "D"
 rather than C++.  Now if there were only some tutorials!!!





Mathew is spotting those would-be D Journal
authors everywhere!  ;)


--
Stijn
OddesE_XYZ hotmail.com
http://OddesE.cjb.net
_________________________________________________
Remove _XYZ from my address when replying by mail
Jun 26 2002
parent "Matthew Wilson" <matthew thedjournal.com> writes:
One has acquired a certain beedy hawk-like eye

"OddesE" <OddesE_XYZ hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afd9ie$2dna$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Matthew Wilson" <dmd synesis.com.au> wrote in message
 news:adsuct$d3d$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Sounds like a magazine column to me ... "Notes from a beginner on the
 front-line"

 "Andrew" <crxace13 comcast.net> wrote in message
 news:adsrib$a94$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> wrote in message
 news:ads0b4$24hq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 | "Juarez Rudsatz" <juarez correio.co> wrote in message
 | news:Xns9226CFB33A0FFjuarezcom 63.105.9.61...
 | > In D html manual we find a section "Who D is Not For".
 | > I propose change this a little bit. This sound to me like
 excluding

 | D will be an excellent language for beginners.
 |

 Which is exactly why I am choosing to learn to program with "D"
 rather than C++.  Now if there were only some tutorials!!!





 Mathew is spotting those would-be D Journal
 authors everywhere!  ;)


 --
 Stijn
 OddesE_XYZ hotmail.com
 http://OddesE.cjb.net
 _________________________________________________
 Remove _XYZ from my address when replying by mail
Jun 26 2002
prev sibling parent "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Andrew" <crxace13 comcast.net> wrote in message
news:adsrib$a94$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Sean L. Palmer" <seanpalmer earthlink.net> wrote in message
 news:ads0b4$24hq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 | D will be an excellent language for beginners.
 Which is exactly why I am choosing to learn to program with "D"
 rather than C++.  Now if there were only some tutorials!!!


For fun, keep a log of your experiences learning with it. That could
eventually be turned into an invaluable tutorial. -Walter
Jun 08 2002