D - OT: C# critique

Mark T (1/1) Feb 01 2004 http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

Walter (4/5) Feb 01 2004 It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author *doe...

Andy Friesen (3/13) Feb 01 2004 Looks like he made his own:

Walter (4/12) Feb 01 2004 *does*

Vathix (7/30) Feb 01 2004 This seems interesting from heron:

Sean L. Palmer (21/21) Feb 01 2004 While I can see the motivation for an operator like that, I truly fail t...

Walter (5/6) Feb 01 2004 I have a strong negative view of the value of overloading assignment. By...

Matthias Becker (13/17) Feb 03 2004 Right, you can never no in D.

Walter (7/26) Feb 03 2004 not

Matthias Becker (3/5) Feb 04 2004 OK, seems like we have different experiences on that. In my hirachies I ...
J Anderson (8/52) Feb 04 2004 I think a problem here, is that it's not standardised. Every time you

Ben Hinkle (17/17) Feb 04 2004 [snip]

christopher diggins (12/23) Feb 01 2004 x := y; // maps to x.Assign(y);

Sean L. Palmer (8/8) Feb 01 2004 Apparently Heron. :)
christopher diggins (21/26) Feb 01 2004 Thanks for the compliment on the article. As a couple of other have poin...

Walter (5/22) Feb 01 2004 *does*

The Lone Haranguer (2/7) Feb 02 2004 I'm surprised he uses English... rather than Esperanto (sp).

Sean L. Palmer (3/3) Feb 02 2004 The Lone Haranguer wrote:

Luke D (4/7) Feb 02 2004 Oh you're evil... Because of you, I just spent the last several hours le...

Antti =?iso-8859-1?Q?Syk=E4ri?= (9/18) Feb 23 2004 For some reason, perhaps because of having studied several European

Matthew (3/4) Feb 01 2004 Some good points in there, some of which also apply to D. :(

Mark T <Mark_member pathlink.com> writes:

http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

Feb 01 2004

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author *does*
use, and why.

Feb 01 2004

Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:

Walter wrote:

 "Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

 
 
 It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author *does*
 use, and why.
 
 

Looks like he made his own: <http://www.heron-language.com/spec.html>

  -- andy

Feb 01 2004

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
news:bvjkpt$kmp$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Walter wrote:

 "Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...

http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

 It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author


*does*
 use, and why.

 Looks like he made his own: <http://www.heron-language.com/spec.html>

I can understand his motivation to do that <g>.

Feb 01 2004

Vathix <vathix dprogramming.com> writes:

Walter wrote:
 "Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
 news:bvjkpt$kmp$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
Walter wrote:


"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...


http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author


 
 *does*
 
use, and why.

Looks like he made his own: <http://www.heron-language.com/spec.html>

 
 
 I can understand his motivation to do that <g>.
 


This seems interesting from heron:


|> Operator
The "|>" or pipe operator works as both an input and an output operator 
allowing data to be recieved from any source that implements the 
IWritePipe interface and to any source that implements the IReadPipe 
interface.

Feb 01 2004

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> writes:

While I can see the motivation for an operator like that, I truly fail to
see what's so different about it from the ordinary assignment operator.

They both implement "data <verb>s from point A to point B" where <verb> can
be replaced by any number of words, such as move, flow, transfer.  I suppose
if the language has weak (i.e. programmer-supported) notions of reference
vs. value vs. abstracted contents, as evidenced by D's plethora of
comparison operators, such a language may want to separate assignment of
reference from assignment of value from assignment of contents, as well, but
personally I'd rather unify, basically shield the programmer from having to
worry about implementation details of the class types.

Unfortunately D doesn't allow you to overload assignment.

Sean

Vathix wrote:
| This seems interesting from heron:
|
|
||| Operator
| The "|>" or pipe operator works as both an input and an output
| operator allowing data to be recieved from any source that implements
| the IWritePipe interface and to any source that implements the
| IReadPipe interface.

Feb 01 2004

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bvjrpf$10ne$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Unfortunately D doesn't allow you to overload assignment.

I have a strong negative view of the value of overloading assignment. By not
overloading it, the semantics of it are reliable and repeatable. (For
example, does it do a deep, shallow, or reference copy?)

Feb 01 2004

Matthias Becker <Matthias_member pathlink.com> writes:

 Unfortunately D doesn't allow you to overload assignment.

I have a strong negative view of the value of overloading assignment. By not
overloading it, the semantics of it are reliable and repeatable. (For
example, does it do a deep, shallow, or reference copy?)

Right, you can never no in D.

class Foo (T)
{
T data;
void method (T value)
{
data = value;  // what happens?
}
}

If T is a class-Type you have a reference copy, if it's not you have a shallow
copy. In C++ you allways "know" that the class will do the right (deep copy if
needed for the type or shallow copy otherwise).
Perhpas something like Eiffels way of doing it would be the best?

Feb 03 2004

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvnqbm$24kv$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Unfortunately D doesn't allow you to overload assignment.

I have a strong negative view of the value of overloading assignment. By


not
overloading it, the semantics of it are reliable and repeatable. (For
example, does it do a deep, shallow, or reference copy?)

 Right, you can never no in D.

 class Foo (T)
 {
 T data;
 void method (T value)
 {
 data = value;  // what happens?
 }
 }

 If T is a class-Type you have a reference copy, if it's not you have a

shallow
 copy. In C++ you allways "know" that the class will do the right (deep

copy if
 needed for the type or shallow copy otherwise).
 Perhpas something like Eiffels way of doing it would be the best?

<g> It is rarely clear in C++ whether one needs to do a deep or a shallow
copy. Hence, I just avoid it and use functions to do deep or shallow copies.

Feb 03 2004

Matthias Becker <Matthias_member pathlink.com> writes:

<g> It is rarely clear in C++ whether one needs to do a deep or a shallow
copy. Hence, I just avoid it and use functions to do deep or shallow copies.

OK, seems like we have different experiences on that. In my hirachies I know
whether a object has to perform a deep copy or not by defualt. And depending on
that I write the copy-c'tor and the assignment operator.

Feb 04 2004

J Anderson <REMOVEanderson badmama.com.au> writes:

Walter wrote:

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvnqbm$24kv$1 digitaldaemon.com...
  

Unfortunately D doesn't allow you to overload assignment.
        

I have a strong negative view of the value of overloading assignment. By
      


not
  

overloading it, the semantics of it are reliable and repeatable. (For
example, does it do a deep, shallow, or reference copy?)

      

Right, you can never no in D.

class Foo (T)
{
T data;
void method (T value)
{
data = value;  // what happens?
}
}

If T is a class-Type you have a reference copy, if it's not you have a
    

shallow
  

copy. In C++ you allways "know" that the class will do the right (deep
    

copy if
  

needed for the type or shallow copy otherwise).
Perhpas something like Eiffels way of doing it would be the best?
    

<g> It is rarely clear in C++ whether one needs to do a deep or a shallow
copy. Hence, I just avoid it and use functions to do deep or shallow copies.

  

I think a problem here, is that it's not standardised.  Every time you 
want to do a copy you need to look up the method in the class.  In one 
it might be dup(), in another it might by deepcopy().  I think there 
needs to be something in the language that standardises copying, 
particularly for templates.


-- 
-Anderson: http://badmama.com.au/~anderson/

Feb 04 2004

"Ben Hinkle" <bhinkle4 juno.com> writes:

[snip]
| ><g> It is rarely clear in C++ whether one needs to do a deep or a shallow
| >copy. Hence, I just avoid it and use functions to do deep or shallow
copies.
| >
| I think a problem here, is that it's not standardised.  Every time you
| want to do a copy you need to look up the method in the class.  In one
| it might be dup(), in another it might by deepcopy().  I think there
| needs to be something in the language that standardises copying,
| particularly for templates.

A consistent naming scheme should be good enough. Since arrays use a "dup"
property for a shallow copy I'd just continue using that and have something
like "deepdup" for a deep copy. Possibly define a couple of interfaces
(Dupable and DeepDupable?) with these properties in them and its all done.
Phobos should set the standard.

| --
| -Anderson: http://badmama.com.au/~anderson/

Feb 04 2004

"christopher diggins" <cdiggins users.sourceforge.net> writes:

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bvjrpf$10ne$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Vathix wrote:
 | This seems interesting from heron:
 |
 |
 ||| Operator
 | The "|>" or pipe operator works as both an input and an output
 | operator allowing data to be recieved from any source that implements
 | the IWritePipe interface and to any source that implements the
 | IReadPipe interface.

 While I can see the motivation for an operator like that, I truly fail to
 see what's so different about it from the ordinary assignment operator.

x := y; // maps to x.Assign(y);
y |> x; // maps to an untyped buffered transfer of bytes.

The semantics are very different. For instance :

matrix |> text_file; // This makes sense
text_file := matrix; // this doesn't make sense

So it would be pointless to just lump these together as both assignment.

-- 
Christopher Diggins
yet another language designer
http://www.heron-language.com

Feb 01 2004

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> writes:

Apparently Heron.  :)

Sean

Walter wrote:
| "Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
|| http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html
|
| It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author
| *does* use, and why.

Feb 01 2004

"christopher diggins" <cdiggins users.sourceforge.net> writes:

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:bvjjso$j6h$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

 It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author *does*
 use, and why.

Thanks for the compliment on the article. As a couple of other have pointed
out, I am working on my own language Heron. Here is what particularly
motivates me about Heron :

- no class inheritance, polymorphism based entirely on interfaces and
delegation of implementation
- memory protection without garbage collection
- clear delineation between referencing variables and assigning values
- inexpensive templates (no code bloat)
- modular organization of code
- objects are value types that can be referenced if desired
- operator overloading
- no special array type, array is just a class defined in the standard
library as is every other primitive
- restricted run time type information through variants

I hope this helps answer your question Walter.

-- 
Christopher Diggins
yet another language designer
http://www.heron-language.com

Feb 01 2004

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"christopher diggins" <cdiggins users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message
news:bvk72b$1kv9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author


*does*
 use, and why.

 Thanks for the compliment on the article. As a couple of other have

pointed
 out, I am working on my own language Heron. Here is what particularly
 motivates me about Heron :

 - no class inheritance, polymorphism based entirely on interfaces and
 delegation of implementation
 - memory protection without garbage collection
 - clear delineation between referencing variables and assigning values
 - inexpensive templates (no code bloat)
 - modular organization of code
 - objects are value types that can be referenced if desired
 - operator overloading
 - no special array type, array is just a class defined in the standard
 library as is every other primitive
 - restricted run time type information through variants

 I hope this helps answer your question Walter.

Yes, it does. Thanks! And good luck with your efforts.

Feb 01 2004

The Lone Haranguer <The_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <bvjjso$j6h$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

It's an interesting read. I'd like to know what language the author *does*
use, and why.

I'm surprised he uses English... rather than Esperanto (sp).

Feb 02 2004

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> writes:

The Lone Haranguer wrote:
| I'm surprised he uses English... rather than Esperanto (sp).

If you like Esperanto, you'll really like Ido:  http://www.idolinguo.com/

Feb 02 2004

Luke D <Luke_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <bvmje8$2iob$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sean L. Palmer says...
The Lone Haranguer wrote:
| I'm surprised he uses English... rather than Esperanto (sp).

If you like Esperanto, you'll really like Ido:  http://www.idolinguo.com/

Oh you're evil... Because of you, I just spent the last several hours learning
Ido... and I have a lot of work to do...

*ploras* Me juas ta linguo...

Feb 02 2004

Antti =?iso-8859-1?Q?Syk=E4ri?= <jsykari gamma.hut.fi> writes:

In article <bvn5hs$eis$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Luke D wrote:
 In article <bvmje8$2iob$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sean L. Palmer says...
The Lone Haranguer wrote:
| I'm surprised he uses English... rather than Esperanto (sp).

If you like Esperanto, you'll really like Ido:  http://www.idolinguo.com/

 
 Oh you're evil... Because of you, I just spent the last several hours learning
 Ido... and I have a lot of work to do...

For some reason, perhaps because of having studied several European
languages in school, Ido seems quite familiar to me already... :)

Just like programming languages - learn a few and then you know them
all!

-Antti

-- 
I will not be using Plan 9 in the creation of weapons of mass destruction
to be used by nations other than the US.

Feb 23 2004

"Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

Some good points in there, some of which also apply to D. :(

"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bvj7r4$30rl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 http://www.heron-language.com/c-sharp-critique.html

Feb 01 2004

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