D - DOSX support for D
- Simon J Mackenzie (4/4) May 19 2003 I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX.
- Nic Tiger (14/18) May 20 2003 D is not directly supported under DOSX, but you could make DMD binaries ...
- Simon J Mackenzie (22/51) May 21 2003 Hi Nic,
- Simon J Mackenzie (14/43) May 25 2003 Hi Nic,
- Walter (4/17) May 25 2003 Apparently wdosx does not support multithreaded programming. You could
- Simon J Mackenzie (4/9) May 26 2003 Thanks for the info. I'll have a look at the library source and see how...
- Nic Tiger (18/61) May 26 2003 Thanks for info.
- Walter (7/18) May 27 2003 I am intrigued by the effort you put into DOSX. While I believe that DOS...
- Nic Tiger (34/55) May 27 2003 I have several reasons:
- Georg Wrede (22/22) May 28 2003 I have a fellow consultant who helps machine shops, labs, and
- Walter (3/5) May 30 2003 That's correct.
- Walter (4/4) May 30 2003 Your reasons are smart, compelling, and sensible. -Walter
- Walter (4/7) May 20 2003 It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express any interest ...
- Nic Tiger (4/11) May 20 2003 I was the first interested in D for DOSX, but I never expressed it :-).
- Walter (5/20) May 21 2003 I forgot, there's another problem. DOSX doesn't support 80 bit reals
- Nic Tiger (7/31) May 21 2003 I know, and I successfully lived for last 4 years without long double in
- Walter (6/40) May 22 2003 The trouble is a lot of dependencies on that existing has crept into the
- Ilya Minkov (6/9) May 22 2003 Depandence? In compiler is understandable, but in libararies? Why hot
I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve? Regards, Simon, potential DeeVohTee
May 19 2003
D is not directly supported under DOSX, but you could make DMD binaries run under DOS by using modified WDOSX. For details, look for message 'Re: Using DMC from DOS' in "c++.announce" news-group. WDOSX is obviously slower than Doug Huffman's DOSX (by my estimations, it is twice slower), but it supports DLLs 'natively'. In order to make DMD produce DOSX executables the run-time library should be rewritten and appropriate startup module written. And in addition to this Walter should add DOSX model for compilation. I am going to rewrite RTL for DOSX but this will be little later. I think I will be very busy in next 2-3 months. Nic Tiger. "Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve? Regards, Simon, potential DeeVohTee
May 20 2003
Simon J Mackenzie <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> Hi Nic, Thanks for the speedy reply and pointing me to an interem solution. As I see it the broader the base the greater the potential market acceptance for D. My hunch is that there is a viable group of supporters out there who do want a good 32bit DOS extender/compiler option for D. A solution for 32bit DOS D apps would be icing on the cake and possibly others as well?! It would provide a toolset to build fast D apps across Linux, Windows and DOS!!! Very nice indeed!!! NB: The OpenWatcom project has certainly provided me with what I'm looking for for DOS extended C / C++ apps and now DMC has DOSX. Nic Tiger wrote:D is not directly supported under DOSX, but you could make DMD binaries run under DOS by using modified WDOSX. For details, look for message 'Re: Using DMC from DOS' in "c++.announce" news-group. WDOSX is obviously slower than Doug Huffman's DOSX (by my estimations, it is twice slower), but it supports DLLs 'natively'.Thanks Nic, I've downloaded the WDOSX material and I will set it up and try it out as soon as I have time (next week).In order to make DMD produce DOSX executables the run-time library should be rewritten and appropriate startup module written. And in addition to this Walter should add DOSX model for compilation.These steps seem like a much more appealing long term solution and one that would be fully intregrated into DMD and not a partial solution, so I'll will look forward to progress in this area.I am going to rewrite RTL for DOSX but this will be little later. I think I will be very busy in next 2-3 months.A good, sound long term solution will be worth the wait if the first option gets me up and running with 32 bit DOS apps. If Walter adds the DOSX model to DMD that would certainly make the job that much easier! Here's hoping.Nic Tiger. "Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...Regards, Simon, a DeeVoteTee (formerly a DeeVohTee)I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve? Regards, Simon, potential DeeVohTee
May 21 2003
Hi Nic, I assume that WDosX is not designed to be used with a DMD executable. When I run stubit -nowfse hello.exe (dmd hello.d from the samples\d directory) it seems happy enough but I get the following runtime errors with hello.exe. a) with your *.wdl files : Could not find CreateThread in module Kernel32.DLL b) with WDosX 97B1 : Could not find ReleaseSemaphore in module Kernel32.DLL. NB: Yes KERNEL32.DLL and not ..32.WDL! Does this mean there are still more Win32 calls in a DMD executable that are not supported by WDosX??? If this is the case then I guess it means I will be unable to use DMD to create 32bit DOS apps? cheers Simon Nic Tiger wrote:D is not directly supported under DOSX, but you could make DMD binaries run under DOS by using modified WDOSX. For details, look for message 'Re: Using DMC from DOS' in "c++.announce" news-group. WDOSX is obviously slower than Doug Huffman's DOSX (by my estimations, it is twice slower), but it supports DLLs 'natively'. In order to make DMD produce DOSX executables the run-time library should be rewritten and appropriate startup module written. And in addition to this Walter should add DOSX model for compilation. I am going to rewrite RTL for DOSX but this will be little later. I think I will be very busy in next 2-3 months. Nic Tiger. "Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve? Regards, Simon, potential DeeVohTee
May 25 2003
"Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:baqcgk$1avt$1 digitaldaemon.com...Hi Nic, I assume that WDosX is not designed to be used with a DMD executable. When I run stubit -nowfse hello.exe (dmd hello.d from the samples\d directory) it seems happy enough but I get the following runtime errors with hello.exe. a) with your *.wdl files : Could not find CreateThread in module Kernel32.DLL b) with WDosX 97B1 : Could not find ReleaseSemaphore in module Kernel32.DLL. NB: Yes KERNEL32.DLL and not ..32.WDL! Does this mean there are still more Win32 calls in a DMD executable that are not supported by WDosX??? If this is the case then I guess it means I will be unable to use DMD to create 32bit DOS apps? cheers SimonApparently wdosx does not support multithreaded programming. You could remove all those calls from the Phobos library and recompile it.
May 25 2003
Walter wrote:Apparently wdosx does not support multithreaded programming. You could remove all those calls from the Phobos library and recompile it.Thanks for the info. I'll have a look at the library source and see how far I get with the mods and recompilation. Simon
May 26 2003
Thanks for info. I assume that CreateThread is not really used in simple applications, so I can create stub for it. I will post it when I do. Anyhow, I already developed multi-threading kernel for DOSX and it is a matter of time when I attach it to DMC runtime library. So I assume we could use multithreading even in plain DOSX. And about WDOSX's stubit: it really complains about .DLL, but this means that first it searched through .WDL module and then tried resolve externals with REAL DLL name (in file it is KERNEL32.DLL) Nic Tiger. "Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:baqcgk$1avt$1 digitaldaemon.com...Hi Nic, I assume that WDosX is not designed to be used with a DMD executable. When I run stubit -nowfse hello.exe (dmd hello.d from the samples\d directory) it seems happy enough but I get the following runtime errors with hello.exe. a) with your *.wdl files : Could not find CreateThread in module Kernel32.DLL b) with WDosX 97B1 : Could not find ReleaseSemaphore in module Kernel32.DLL. NB: Yes KERNEL32.DLL and not ..32.WDL! Does this mean there are still more Win32 calls in a DMD executable that are not supported by WDosX??? If this is the case then I guess it means I will be unable to use DMD to create 32bit DOS apps? cheers Simon Nic Tiger wrote:runD is not directly supported under DOSX, but you could make DMD binariesit isunder DOS by using modified WDOSX. For details, look for message 'Re: Using DMC from DOS' in "c++.announce" news-group. WDOSX is obviously slower than Doug Huffman's DOSX (by my estimations,should betwice slower), but it supports DLLs 'natively'. In order to make DMD produce DOSX executables the run-time librarythisrewritten and appropriate startup module written. And in addition tothink IWalter should add DOSX model for compilation. I am going to rewrite RTL for DOSX but this will be little later. Iwill be very busy in next 2-3 months. Nic Tiger. "Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve? Regards, Simon, potential DeeVohTee
May 26 2003
I am intrigued by the effort you put into DOSX. While I believe that DOSX is a great product, and the best DOS extender by far, I also think that their time has past. What keeps you developing for it? "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:bauocv$3rs$1 digitaldaemon.com...Thanks for info. I assume that CreateThread is not really used in simple applications, so I can create stub for it. I will post it when I do. Anyhow, I already developed multi-threading kernel for DOSX and it is a matter of time when I attach it to DMC runtime library. So I assume wecoulduse multithreading even in plain DOSX. And about WDOSX's stubit: it really complains about .DLL, but this means that first it searched through .WDL module and then tried resolveexternalswith REAL DLL name (in file it is KERNEL32.DLL) Nic Tiger.
May 27 2003
I have several reasons: 1) It is stable by itself (it doesn't introduce its own bugs as Windows does), and my own bug I can always find and fix 2) I have sophisticated GUI developed from scratch with usage of inheritance, so I don't need Windows GUI. In fact the only plus in Windows (that I haven't yet have in DOSX) is visual development tools. But this can be done in DOSX either 3) DOSX has not (or almost has not) performance shortcomings in comparison to Windows. On the other hand I have all resources in my disposal in DOSX. The (fixable) problem I encounter now is alignment problem. It seems that DMC needs controlled alignment (it is crucial for SIMD code). About performance, I compiled XVID codec for DOSX and it runs about 5% faster in DOSX than in Windows (and when assembler is switched off, it runs 30-40% faster!) 4) I develop specialized systems, such as flight data ground-based processing system or hardware modeling systems 5) There is no way to get good Real-Time performance in Windows even on top-most CPUs (I tried PIII 1000 and P4 2400). The accuracy of Windows timer is terrible. On the other hand I can do all hardware jobs from DOSX easily which is required for controlling missile guidance system in real-time, for example. 6) Most of issues of Windows are applicable for Linux too. In addition to this, X in Linux is *very* slow (in fact, inappropriately slow). The solution I see is to implement my own GUI in Linux, but this will be effectively the same as DOSX. The other problem with Linux is GCC. If I had DMC working for Linux, I think I could port all my development from DOSX to Linux for several weeks, but with GCC's inline assembler it seems impossible. Sincerely yours, Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:bb1crt$2epd$1 digitaldaemon.com...I am intrigued by the effort you put into DOSX. While I believe that DOSXisa great product, and the best DOS extender by far, I also think that their time has past. What keeps you developing for it? "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:bauocv$3rs$1 digitaldaemon.com...IThanks for info. I assume that CreateThread is not really used in simple applications, socan create stub for it. I will post it when I do. Anyhow, I already developed multi-threading kernel for DOSX and it is a matter of time when I attach it to DMC runtime library. So I assume wecoulduse multithreading even in plain DOSX. And about WDOSX's stubit: it really complains about .DLL, but this means that first it searched through .WDL module and then tried resolveexternalswith REAL DLL name (in file it is KERNEL32.DLL) Nic Tiger.
May 27 2003
I have a fellow consultant who helps machine shops, labs, and processing plants with automating legacy hardware, custom data gathering, alarms, and general automation. He uses second-hand PCs, MSDOS or freeware dos, and custom hardware. The PCs normally do only one thing, and run only one program 24h/d. This saves his clients loads of money compared to "proper" solutions. Both in hardware and in software costs. He cites: - Easy to find programmers - tools and practices are well known, hence bug-free - your program can use the machine as it wishes - no complicated operating system issues (windows, linux) - TTY UI is sufficient for most cases (often even no UI) - Char based UI or TTY UI are quick and trivial to do For the few cases he really needs a graphical ui, he programs one from scratch, often as character based -- with less work than merely using Windows widgets. They currently use C, Pascal, ASM. They'd use Forth for some projects but it's too hard to find programmers. ---- What I think is, they should use D instead of C and Pascal. But then they'd need a dos extender, right?
May 28 2003
"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message news:bb1sm8$c8$1 digitaldaemon.com...What I think is, they should use D instead of C and Pascal. But then they'd need a dos extender, right?That's correct.
May 30 2003
Your reasons are smart, compelling, and sensible. -Walter BTW, your reason for not using linux was the inline assembler. I agree that the pain of converting to D for linux has the inline assembler! So is it possible that D for linux will suffice?
May 30 2003
I would like DMC for Linux. Anyway for current need we cannot afford developing Linux versions of our systems because we have not enough users capable of working in Linux (esp., sys admins to maintain Linux network; for now they use Novell for DOS/Win32, I doubt whether they have enough qualification to study Linux or other *nix ) As for foreign (outside Russia) customers, we currently have no new aircrafts to sell, and all previous ones are suited well with DOSX/Win32 versions. Though I am highly interested in moving my development to D, it is very constrained due to missing DOSX support. As for migrating to Linux, I am afraid to change two things at once: Language and Platform. It would be good for me to make intermediate port of my systems with DMC for Linux and then develop system anew in D with all three platforms DOSX/Win32/Linux in mind. Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:bb8aft$2b8u$1 digitaldaemon.com...Your reasons are smart, compelling, and sensible. -Walter BTW, your reason for not using linux was the inline assembler. I agreethatthe pain of converting to D for linux has the inline assembler! So is it possible that D for linux will suffice?
May 31 2003
Ok, I understand where you're coming from now. -Walter
May 31 2003
"Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve?It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express any interest in it.
May 20 2003
I was the first interested in D for DOSX, but I never expressed it :-). Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:badtq7$4f5$1 digitaldaemon.com..."Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve?It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express any interest in it.
May 20 2003
I forgot, there's another problem. DOSX doesn't support 80 bit reals (primarilly so it can run on machines without a coprocessor). "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:baeua5$190m$1 digitaldaemon.com...I was the first interested in D for DOSX, but I never expressed it :-). Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:badtq7$4f5$1 digitaldaemon.com...in"Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve?It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express any interestit.
May 21 2003
I know, and I successfully lived for last 4 years without long double in DOSX. It would be good to have 80-bit float, but certainly not mandating. Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:baghne$2u4o$1 digitaldaemon.com...I forgot, there's another problem. DOSX doesn't support 80 bit reals (primarilly so it can run on machines without a coprocessor). "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:baeua5$190m$1 digitaldaemon.com...interestI was the first interested in D for DOSX, but I never expressed it :-). Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:badtq7$4f5$1 digitaldaemon.com..."Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve?It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express anyinit.
May 21 2003
The trouble is a lot of dependencies on that existing has crept into the compiler & libraries. Not impossible to fix, just a substantial amount of work. "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:bahib5$shh$1 digitaldaemon.com...I know, and I successfully lived for last 4 years without long double in DOSX. It would be good to have 80-bit float, but certainly not mandating. Nic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:baghne$2u4o$1 digitaldaemon.com...:-).I forgot, there's another problem. DOSX doesn't support 80 bit reals (primarilly so it can run on machines without a coprocessor). "Nic Tiger" <tiger7 progtech.ru> wrote in message news:baeua5$190m$1 digitaldaemon.com...I was the first interested in D for DOSX, but I never expressed itinterestNic Tiger. "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:badtq7$4f5$1 digitaldaemon.com..."Simon J Mackenzie" <project.d smackoz.fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:bac9ap$1jd4$1 digitaldaemon.com...I'm wanting to try out D with DOSX. Has anyone ported the D to DOSX yet? What would the port involve?It would not be difficult, but you're the first to express anyinit.
May 22 2003
Walter wrote:The trouble is a lot of dependencies on that existing has crept into the compiler & libraries. Not impossible to fix, just a substantial amount of work.Depandence? In compiler is understandable, but in libararies? Why hot make a special compiler mode which would replace every occurence of "real" with a "double"? This would also be appreciated by some freaks outside DOS. :> -i.
May 22 2003