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D - allegro library

reply "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
Is anyone familiar with it?
I ran all the examples but 3 using dmc, and now I'm trying to port it to D.
(BTW, is this idea good or nuts?). The bad thing is that I can't run any
example that contains set_palette() or such, because I get an acces
violation. Is anyone familiar enough with allegro to have an idea of why
this is happening?

-------------------------
Carlos Santander


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May 19 2003
next sibling parent Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:
Carlos Santander B. wrote:

 Is anyone familiar with it?
 I ran all the examples but 3 using dmc, and now I'm trying to port it to D.
 (BTW, is this idea good or nuts?). The bad thing is that I can't run any
 example that contains set_palette() or such, because I get an acces
 violation. Is anyone familiar enough with allegro to have an idea of why
 this is happening?
 
 -------------------------
 Carlos Santander


One of D's weaknesses is that there's not a lot of code that you can 
just "plug in."  So, more code is good, methinks.  It's likely that 
somebody will find it useful.

  -- andy
May 19 2003
prev sibling parent reply Ilya Minkov <Ilya_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bac1o9$10b1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Carlos Santander B. says...


Is anyone familiar with it?


uh-oh, i guess it's older than me. So i'm not.


I ran all the examples but 3 using dmc, and now I'm trying to port it to D.
(BTW, is this idea good or nuts?). The bad thing is that I can't run any
example that contains set_palette() or such, because I get an acces
violation. Is anyone familiar enough with allegro to have an idea of why
this is happening?


Why do you choose Allegro over libSDL? There already exists a D import for it,
and it is very widely cross-platform.

What do you mean by "port"? Writing an import module?

What is your task and why do you need 8-bit color? Maybe TinyPTC is what you
need, if you're looking for a really simple framebuffer interface? I think i
compiled TinyPTC with DMC.

-i.
May 20 2003
parent reply "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
"Ilya Minkov" <Ilya_member pathlink.com> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:bacvpj$282n$1 digitaldaemon.com...
| In article <bac1o9$10b1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Carlos Santander B. says...
|
| >Is anyone familiar with it?
|
| uh-oh, i guess it's older than me. So i'm not.
|
| >I ran all the examples but 3 using dmc, and now I'm trying to port it to
D.
| >(BTW, is this idea good or nuts?). The bad thing is that I can't run any
| >example that contains set_palette() or such, because I get an acces
| >violation. Is anyone familiar enough with allegro to have an idea of why
| >this is happening?
|
| Why do you choose Allegro over libSDL? There already exists a D import for
it,
| and it is very widely cross-platform.
|
| What do you mean by "port"? Writing an import module?
|
| What is your task and why do you need 8-bit color? Maybe TinyPTC is what
you
| need, if you're looking for a really simple framebuffer interface? I think
i
| compiled TinyPTC with DMC.
|
| -i.
|
|

I don't have any task, I was doing it because I thought it could be
interesting. I want to write a very simple game. Actually, I already have it
in console mode. I wanted to add menues and nice things, but then I thought
I could just jump to graphics. I also thought windows, and I have some of it
(but I'm drawing directly over a form. yuk). The first thing that came to my
mind for graphics was allegro, though I've never used it. And, yes,
port=write import module.

Another thing that crossed my mind right now was that, afaik, there're many
game programmer wanna-bees (maybe that's not well written, but I guess you
get the idea) who use allegro, and they probably hear of d, so they'll see
what they can do with it, and if they see one of the tools they prefer
already ready to use, maybe they'll jump to d. But I could be wrong.

—————————————————————————
Carlos Santander


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May 20 2003
parent reply Ilya Minkov <midiclub 8ung.at> writes:
Carlos Santander B. wrote:

 I don't have any task, I was doing it because I thought it could be
 interesting. I want to write a very simple game. Actually, I already have it
 in console mode. I wanted to add menues and nice things, but then I thought
 I could just jump to graphics. I also thought windows, and I have some of it
 (but I'm drawing directly over a form. yuk). The first thing that came to my
 mind for graphics was allegro, though I've never used it. And, yes,
 port=write import module.


Writing a game is a task. :)

I didn't know Allegro so far. As i can see, it's much higher-level and 
more powerful than libSDL.

In libSDL you usually have to take care converting your graphics to a 
corresponding bitplane format before using. It gives you some help 
though. It allows do any low-level thing you can think of, but its 
powerful functionality allows to wrap it into an object-oriented 
higher-level interface. The low-level interface has been tuned to be as 
efficient as possible with DirectDraw and corresponding systems under 
X(Unix/linux), BeOS, QNX, MacOS, and other OSes, i guess even DOS. It is 
extensible with drivers, number of which constantly grows. The few 
existing ports of commercial games to Linux, like the new Civilisation, 
were done using this library.

Also, libSDL provides simple sound output and joystic+mouse input 
capabilities, as well as timers and threads. I believe it is simple to 
make an object-oriented wrapper for it which would simplify its usage a 
lot. Another good thing is that it can work together with OpenGL very 
well on mainstream platforms, serving as a more powerful and faster/ 
more appropriate replacement to GLUT.

At the contrary, TinyPTC is a library for 64K-demos, and allows you to 
draw to a flat 32-bit surface, which allows for terse and fast code, and 
then displays it onto DirectDraw or libSDL. As it has no sound 
capabilities, it is usually combined with miniFMOD for simple music, or 
with a tiny custom software synth.


 Another thing that crossed my mind right now was that, afaik, there're many
 game programmer wanna-bees (maybe that's not well written, but I guess you
 get the idea) who use allegro, and they probably hear of d, so they'll see
 what they can do with it, and if they see one of the tools they prefer
 already ready to use, maybe they'll jump to d. But I could be wrong.


Allegro seems to contain everything ready-made... So i guess it does 
make sense to port it.

-i.
May 20 2003
parent reply "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
"Ilya Minkov" <midiclub 8ung.at> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:badtft$44i$1 digitaldaemon.com...
|
| Writing a game is a task. :)

Not for me. I usually start writing games but I never finish them. I write
them because I think I could have a good time with them. The only game that
I finished was a NBA Simulation, but it was more a demo than a game: the
user didn't do anything because the program automatically generated the
results. And I lost the source code. The closest thing to a finished game
would be a minesweeper I wrote in D, but it: 1) doesn't know how to end, and
2) doesn't compile anymore (don't ask me why. All I did was change all the
printf's to Console.io.write and now I get an internal error. But that's
another story). That's basically the sad story of my so-called games. But
it's like a general story of myself: I don't finish those games because
they're not too interesting, but that's because I can never think of a
really good program to make. Ever. So sometimes I find myself doing nothing
but wanting to do something, but I just can't think of anything good or good
enough. Is it just me or is it a common problem?

|
| I didn't know Allegro so far. As i can see, it's much higher-level and
| more powerful than libSDL.
|

I don't know libSDL or TinyPTC, and I've never played with DirectX. In fact,
this is my first experience with Allegro too. I don't know how it came to my
mind.

|
| Allegro seems to contain everything ready-made... So i guess it does
| make sense to port it.
|

I guess I should continue then.

| -i.
|

-------------------------
Carlos Santander


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May 20 2003
next sibling parent reply "Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> writes:
Off-topic:

One of the things people look for when hiring games programmers is people
who can actually finish what they start.

That said, most of my pet projects sit unfinished.  ;)

Sean

"Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> wrote in message
news:baelui$v1l$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Ilya Minkov" <midiclub 8ung.at> escribiσ en el mensaje
 news:badtft$44i$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 |
 | Writing a game is a task. :)

 Not for me. I usually start writing games but I never finish them. I write
 them because I think I could have a good time with them. The only game


that

 I finished was a NBA Simulation, but it was more a demo than a game: the
 user didn't do anything because the program automatically generated the
 results. And I lost the source code. The closest thing to a finished game
 would be a minesweeper I wrote in D, but it: 1) doesn't know how to end,


and

 2) doesn't compile anymore (don't ask me why. All I did was change all the
 printf's to Console.io.write and now I get an internal error. But that's
 another story). That's basically the sad story of my so-called games. But
 it's like a general story of myself: I don't finish those games because
 they're not too interesting, but that's because I can never think of a
 really good program to make. Ever. So sometimes I find myself doing


nothing

 but wanting to do something, but I just can't think of anything good or


good

 enough. Is it just me or is it a common problem?
May 21 2003
next sibling parent reply "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:bafc5k$1ons$1 digitaldaemon.com...
| Off-topic:
|
| One of the things people look for when hiring games programmers is people
| who can actually finish what they start.
|

No problem there: I don't expect to be a game programmer.

But that sets a point: I'm 20 and I like programming. But (personally) I
don't want to be 30 and be programming because I need to. I'd like to do
something else, like have someone do the programming for me ;). Since I'm
not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a
programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can
change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too
bad some of them are being reflected here)

—————————————————————————
Carlos Santander


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May 21 2003
parent reply "Luna Kid" <lunakid neuropolis.org> writes:
 not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a
 programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can
 change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too


I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
on what you want to develop yourself to be.

Sz.
May 21 2003
next sibling parent "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
"Luna Kid" <lunakid neuropolis.org> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:bah395$e2c$1 digitaldaemon.com...
|
| I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
| But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
| thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
| it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
| them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
| start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
| then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
| one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
| to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
| on what you want to develop yourself to be.
|
| Sz.
|

I guess your right. Thanks. That should cheer me up, shouldn't it? :D

—————————————————————————
Carlos Santander


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May 21 2003
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bah395$e2c$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Luna Kid says...

 not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a
 programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can
 change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too


I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
on what you want to develop yourself to be.


There are several issues here. But before I go into that,
I'll tell you about myself.

Already before college I knew that what I really want to
do is programming. I liked computers better than humans
for their logic and consistent behavior (I'd have loved
Spock as the next-door neighbor!)

I went to a technical university and passed our first
programming course (Fortran) as both first and with the
best score. This was in '77.

I had entered as a Machine Engineering Student, mainly
because I never knew there was a CS curriculum. However,
at the time this university (that today has a profound
reputation in CS) did have no computers! (zero, zilch,
nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.

If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
session was useless, since you did not have enough time
to recode your stuff.

So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.

Anyway, I always thought that having computers as a
profession would make them everyday, work, drudgery,
and boring. (Turns out I was right.)

So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
over there I was not interested in much else than
Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
about administration related issues. (This was the time
Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)

I taught CS for 6 years at the university, managed the
student data base (Sun, Oracle), and started developing
a graphic language for communication between business
leaders (execs, CEOs, chairmen, consultants, managers, 
etc.)

Then I started an Internet startup. We were going to
get $10,000,000 as start-up funding from a VC, but
sadly it was March 2000 before we got his signature. 

Today I have the same company, but I've since fired
all staff, and I now do all the programming myself.

At this age (46), programming is not nearly as easy
as it used to be. Now I know why old people walk 
slowly, why they can talk with you smoothly _as long_
as the issues are everyday, and why they seem to
totally miss the point if you try to introduce some
new concepts too suddenly into the discourse.

Sure, doing the old things goes as fast as ever. Talking,
driving a car (on known roads!), doing usual stuff is ok.
But I'd never venture into skate boarding, street 
fighting, and I've quit playing pinball.

This all means that being a professional programmer is
not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
(call it advance to managerial position). There your
experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.

I know this gave no specific advice (and it shouldn't),
but maybe it illuminated some of the issues that one
may not think about at first hand?
May 21 2003
parent reply Bill Cox <bill viasic.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 In article <bah395$e2c$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Luna Kid says...
 

not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a
programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can
change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too


I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
on what you want to develop yourself to be.


 
 
 There are several issues here. But before I go into that,
 I'll tell you about myself.
 
 Already before college I knew that what I really want to
 do is programming. I liked computers better than humans
 for their logic and consistent behavior (I'd have loved
 Spock as the next-door neighbor!)
 
 I went to a technical university and passed our first
 programming course (Fortran) as both first and with the
 best score. This was in '77.
 
 I had entered as a Machine Engineering Student, mainly
 because I never knew there was a CS curriculum. However,
 at the time this university (that today has a profound
 reputation in CS) did have no computers! (zero, zilch,
 nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
 on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
 min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
 to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.
 
 If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
 session was useless, since you did not have enough time
 to recode your stuff.
 
 So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.
 
 Anyway, I always thought that having computers as a
 profession would make them everyday, work, drudgery,
 and boring. (Turns out I was right.)
 
 So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
 university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
 over there I was not interested in much else than
 Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
 mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
 about administration related issues. (This was the time
 Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)
 
 I taught CS for 6 years at the university, managed the
 student data base (Sun, Oracle), and started developing
 a graphic language for communication between business
 leaders (execs, CEOs, chairmen, consultants, managers, 
 etc.)
 
 Then I started an Internet startup. We were going to
 get $10,000,000 as start-up funding from a VC, but
 sadly it was March 2000 before we got his signature. 
 
 Today I have the same company, but I've since fired
 all staff, and I now do all the programming myself.
 
 At this age (46), programming is not nearly as easy
 as it used to be. Now I know why old people walk 
 slowly, why they can talk with you smoothly _as long_
 as the issues are everyday, and why they seem to
 totally miss the point if you try to introduce some
 new concepts too suddenly into the discourse.
 
 Sure, doing the old things goes as fast as ever. Talking,
 driving a car (on known roads!), doing usual stuff is ok.
 But I'd never venture into skate boarding, street 
 fighting, and I've quit playing pinball.
 
 This all means that being a professional programmer is
 not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
 Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
 (call it advance to managerial position). There your
 experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
 young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.
 
 I know this gave no specific advice (and it shouldn't),
 but maybe it illuminated some of the issues that one
 may not think about at first hand?


It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's 
about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good 
to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing 
some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life. 
  I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I 
can't stand that I can't publish it.

But it is definately getting harder.  For one thing, I don't seem to be 
able to find my mouse any more.  I hunt all over the screen for it. 
RedHat Linux 7.3 doesn't seem to have mouse-trails or big pointers.

I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after 
8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.

I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in 
a month.  It messed up the nerve tunnels in my elbows.  Instead I had to 
program by voice, which is actually pretty hard.  After my daughter was 
born, and after I quit a stressful job, and after I switch to only 
laptop programming (which keeps my elbows straight), I recovered, and 
can type again.

It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this. 
So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I 
suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's 
still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own 
companies that we founded.

I do know programmers who are highly productive in their 60's.  I hope 
to either be in this group, or in the retired rich SOB group.  Even 
better -- Both!  Sipping good scotch on a beach in Saint Bart... coding 
on my laptop... working on a new patent just for fun,  The most 
productive programmer I know is the foud. and offering useless advice to 
young guys.  Do I have to keep my wife in this dream, or can I 
substitute a 20-year old busty bomb-shell?  Maybe not.

The worst part of being a long-term focused techno-geek for me is the 
lack of development of human skills.  I actually look forward to chances 
to write (though I suck at it), sell stuff (again, I suck), and network 
with people.  Had I focused on that earlier, I think I would have made 
out really well during the web boom.  People skills rule.  So does good 
business sense.

I'll wager that the reason Georg, Walter, and I are still coding so hard 
is that we had no business skills whatsoever for a very long time.  For 
our sake, I hope we've learned some.  You don't really know for sure 
until you make a lot of $.

Whatever you do with your life, I'd recomend doing it intensly.  Don't 
do life half-heartedly.  Then, it'll probably work out ok.  I think when 
you're 30 looking back at yourself at 20, you'll see that you were 
clueless back then.  I find people discover who they are after college 
during their 20's.  I wouldn't worry about it too much before then. 
Just focus on what you're doing, and do it well.

How's that for a bunch of useless advice from a moron too young to give 
old-guy advice?  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.

Bill
May 22 2003
next sibling parent reply "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
Bill, Georg, thanks a lot. It's been fun (even funny) to read.

Some comments embedded.

| Georg Wrede wrote:
| >
| > nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
| > on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
| > min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
| > to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.
| >
| > If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
| > session was useless, since you did not have enough time
| > to recode your stuff.
| >
| > So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.

I've read a lot about those days. It just makes me remember how lucky I am.
But then I think that next generations will have it even easier and I think
I'm unlucky. j/k...

| >
| > So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
| > university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
| > over there I was not interested in much else than
| > Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
| > mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
| > about administration related issues. (This was the time
| > Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)

Do they let you do things like that over there? I'm gonna have to switch
universities. lol... Over here, to get your thesis approved, you have to
actually pray the day before an audition in front of some important persons
and convince them it's worth to do. But they're so close-minded that
sometimes it's mission impossible.

| >
| > This all means that being a professional programmer is
| > not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
| > Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
| > (call it advance to managerial position). There your
| > experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
| > young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.
| >

That's what everyone tells me: you don't have to learn because you're going
to do things, but because you have to know so you can lead. Problem is that
I only have patience with my brother and my sisters, so when I'm in charge
of something, people under my lead start to hate me. Is it too bad to be a
perfectionist? Not that I am, but I hate it when my own class mates don't
have a clue when I say "preprocess", get scared when I say "let's try
something in Linux", etc.

"Bill Cox" <bill viasic.com> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:3ECCBDA3.8070404 viasic.com...
|
| It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
| about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good

That's just the way I am: either I worry too much, or I don't worry at all.
I remember everything, or I remember nothing. I do it well, or I delete it
and forget I ever tried.
There's a huge difference, though. Over here, people who develop (and I mean
true professionals) hardly know more than VB, Java, C/C++, Oracle and SQL.
It's impressive for me to see all of you guys talk about so many languages.
Over here people don't even know (or care) about languages like Sather or
OCaml. At least I'm gonna learn (supposedly) Prolog and Lisp this semester.
But the worst thing is that they say C/C++ is too hard, so let's just stay
with VB or Java. And Linux, only for the big companies. My InterNetworking
teacher doesn't even know what FreeBSD is. So if you say "careers are
accelerating", it's not quite a truth down here. Sad thing is that just 3
hours away from here, in Brazil, people do care about those things. So
distances are getting even bigger. But that's not a computational problem,
but a social-political-cultural one.

| So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I

Force. yuk. Awful word.

|
| I do know programmers who are highly productive in their 60's.  I hope
| to either be in this group, or in the retired rich SOB group.  Even
| better -- Both!  Sipping good scotch on a beach in Saint Bart... coding
| on my laptop... working on a new patent just for fun,  The most

lol! If you find a way to do that, let me know it. lol

|
| The worst part of being a long-term focused techno-geek for me is the
| lack of development of human skills.  I actually look forward to chances
| to write (though I suck at it), sell stuff (again, I suck), and network
| with people.  Had I focused on that earlier, I think I would have made
| out really well during the web boom.  People skills rule.  So does good
| business sense.

I've been heavily criticized for that, especially by my parents. But I don't
think they're right: I'm not anti people. lol...

|
| Whatever you do with your life, I'd recomend doing it intensly.  Don't
| do life half-heartedly.  Then, it'll probably work out ok.  I think when
| you're 30 looking back at yourself at 20, you'll see that you were
| clueless back then.  I find people discover who they are after college
| during their 20's.  I wouldn't worry about it too much before then.
| Just focus on what you're doing, and do it well.
|

I know I'm clueless. I'm old enough to know that I'm not old enough to know
things.

There's one big fat problem about doing things intensely: these teachers
that I've had don't know how to teach. They think that we only have their
classes and forget about the rest. So they tell us to do huge assignments
and they're boring, unnecessary, pointless, etc. How can we do those things
with heart? You see me doing vb2d translator, allegro library, sockets for
linux, etc., but because I want to do it, not because someone tells me so.
But that's just me.

One more thing: the minute you (all) think I'm making no sense, complaining
too much, going OT too much, or anything like that, just tell me and I'll
stick to D related stuff. I'll find another place to discharge. lol

-------------------------
Carlos Santander


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May 22 2003
parent Bill Cox <bill viasic.com> writes:
Hi, Carlos.


 There's one big fat problem about doing things intensely: these teachers
 that I've had don't know how to teach. They think that we only have their
 classes and forget about the rest. So they tell us to do huge assignments
 and they're boring, unnecessary, pointless, etc. How can we do those things
 with heart? You see me doing vb2d translator, allegro library, sockets for
 linux, etc., but because I want to do it, not because someone tells me so.
 But that's just me.


The number one thing I look for in a resume is personal projects like 
these.  They indicate you love the work, not just the money.  The last 
guy we hired hacks everything, even his car.

As for teachers not knowing how to teach, I think it's a univeral 
problem.  I went to Berkeley, in California.  It was a big problem 
there, although I had several great teachers.  Even so, I learned a lot 
more from friends, and from hacking than I ever did in class.  That's 
another reason I look for personal projects.  If you did them, you 
probably learned twice as much as the other guys.


 One more thing: the minute you (all) think I'm making no sense, complaining
 too much, going OT too much, or anything like that, just tell me and I'll
 stick to D related stuff. I'll find another place to discharge. lol


I already checked, and it seems that people on this group don't mind 
much if we wander well off topic, although the OT prefix is apriciated.

Bill
May 22 2003
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Bill Cox" <bill viasic.com> wrote in message
news:3ECCBDA3.8070404 viasic.com...

 It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
 about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good
 to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing
 some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life.
   I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I
 can't stand that I can't publish it.


All I have to do is look at the crud I wrote 20 years ago <g>.



 I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after
 8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.


I never did those kind of hours. Well, a few times, but the result was I
always had to scrap it and rewrite it. It never worked for me to code when I
was fatigued. The best coding I do is when I'm out jogging. I work it all
out in my head, then just type it in later.



 I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in
 a month.


I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.



 It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this.
 So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I
 suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's
 still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own
 companies that we founded.


I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because
nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.



  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.


39? You're just a young whippersnapper <g>.
May 24 2003
next sibling parent reply Helmut Leitner <leitner hls.via.at> writes:
Walter wrote:

 
 "Bill Cox" <bill viasic.com> wrote in message
 news:3ECCBDA3.8070404 viasic.com...

 It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
 about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good
 to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing
 some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life.
   I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I
 can't stand that I can't publish it.


 
 All I have to do is look at the crud I wrote 20 years ago <g>.
 

 I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after
 8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.


 
 I never did those kind of hours. Well, a few times, but the result was I
 always had to scrap it and rewrite it. It never worked for me to code when I
 was fatigued. The best coding I do is when I'm out jogging. I work it all
 out in my head, then just type it in later.
 

 I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in
 a month.


 
 I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.
 

 It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this.
 So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I
 suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's
 still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own
 companies that we founded.


 
 I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because
 nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.
 

  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.


 
 39? You're just a young whippersnapper <g>.


I once tried to apply as an OldGeezer but am still not sure that I was
accepted:
   <http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?OldGeezers>

BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating with 
people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun. 

-- 
Helmut Leitner    leitner hls.via.at
Graz, Austria   www.hls-software.com
May 24 2003
next sibling parent reply "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Helmut Leitner" <leitner hls.via.at> wrote in message
news:3ECF3AD5.7D7966AE hls.via.at...

 BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating


with

 people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun.


It's fun for me, too. I never liked being a manager. It's best to be what
you are - your greatest chance of success lies that direction.
May 24 2003
parent "Matthew Wilson" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:baoceg$2k5h$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Helmut Leitner" <leitner hls.via.at> wrote in message
 news:3ECF3AD5.7D7966AE hls.via.at...

 BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating


 with

 people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun.


 It's fun for me, too. I never liked being a manager. It's best to be what
 you are - your greatest chance of success lies that direction.


Absolutely!
May 28 2003
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <3ECF3AD5.7D7966AE hls.via.at>, Helmut Leitner says...

Walter wrote:

 
 "Bill Cox" <bill viasic.com> wrote in message





   I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I
 can't stand that I can't publish it.






I've just had a period of two years that I didn't acheve anything
that I feel was worth while. But right now I'm rising to my feet.
Sure hope it lasts.


 All I have to do is look at the crud I wrote 20 years ago <g>.




You should be worried if you didn't fee like it now.  :-)


 I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in
 a month.


 
 I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.




Same here. I had to switch to vi, it is less straining on your hands.
But I had some luck too, what I thought was the boring clunky old vi
was now Vim, and it turned out to be a serious challenger to emacs.

BTW, does anybody here have a D syntax file for Vim? I'm using C++
highlighting for now.


 It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this.
 So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I
 suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's
 still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own
 companies that we founded.


 
 I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because
 nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.
 

  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.






..


BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating with 
people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun. 


It is fun. But I do know quite a few people who feel sorry for me 
sitting day in and day out in a dark room with iron humming and 
screens flickering, and at times laughing out loud.

Hey, in a couple of years we all should go to the same old folks home.
We'd have a hell of a time telling war stories, and bracing for the
apple cores and banana peels!
May 24 2003
next sibling parent C <cc.news gateway.mirlex.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:


 BTW, does anybody here have a D syntax file for Vim? I'm using C++
 highlighting for now.


Yes, J.Mills wrote a syntax - it is available via www.vim.org
though no updates have been made for about 6 months; though D
syntax has been stable over that period.

I have taken the liberty of attaching the file to this post.

C 2003/5/25
May 24 2003
prev sibling next sibling parent C <cc.news gateway.mirlex.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:


 Same here. I had to switch to vi, it is less straining on your hands.
 But I had some luck too, what I thought was the boring clunky old vi
 was now Vim, and it turned out to be a serious challenger to emacs.


Agreed, I am getting to rather like vim after using it for
a few years.


 BTW, does anybody here have a D syntax file for Vim? I'm using C++
 highlighting for now.


Yes, J.Mills wrote a syntax some time ago. It is available
via www.vim.org. (The file has been attached here for your
convienience). I do not believe it has been updated in the
last 6 months, but in that time the D syntax has been fair
-ly stable.

C 2003/5/25

[Post scriptum: Sorry if this is a double post]
May 24 2003
prev sibling parent Bill Cox <bill viasic.com> writes:
I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in
a month.


I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.




 
 Same here. I had to switch to vi, it is less straining on your hands.
 But I had some luck too, what I thought was the boring clunky old vi
 was now Vim, and it turned out to be a serious challenger to emacs.
 
 BTW, does anybody here have a D syntax file for Vim? I'm using C++
 highlighting for now.


I trashed my hands using gnu-emacs.  Then, emacs was extremely helpful 
while I had to program by voice.  Now that I type again, I've switched 
to Vim, which has been a surprisingly good editor.

Let me know when you get a D syntax file.

-- Bill
May 25 2003
prev sibling parent reply Bill Cox <Bill_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <ban9vr$1irt$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...


I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because
nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.


How do you fund the development?

Bill
May 24 2003
parent "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Bill Cox" <Bill_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:baod6t$2kr8$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <ban9vr$1irt$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because
nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.


 How do you fund the development?


With my own time and the help of several volunteers.
May 24 2003
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bafc5k$1ons$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 One of the things people look for when hiring games programmers is people
 who can actually finish what they start.


Oh, drat. I've been working on the same program for 20 years now. It's still
not done :-(
May 24 2003
parent "Luna Kid" <lunakid neuropolis.org> writes:
"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:ban7k7$1e36$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> wrote in message
 news:bafc5k$1ons$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 One of the things people look for when hiring games programmers is people
 who can actually finish what they start.


 Oh, drat. I've been working on the same program for 20 years now. It's still
 not done :-(


:-) Great, I have plenty of time then...

Sz.
May 28 2003
prev sibling parent reply Ilya Minkov <Ilya_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <baelui$v1l$2 digitaldaemon.com>, Carlos Santander B. says...

 That's basically the sad story of my so-called games. But
it's like a general story of myself: I don't finish those games because
they're not too interesting, but that's because I can never think of a
really good program to make. Ever. So sometimes I find myself doing nothing
but wanting to do something, but I just can't think of anything good or good
enough. Is it just me or is it a common problem?


I myself am a demoscene progammer, currently a lead programmer of a lame finnish
group Numedia Cyclops, which has released one real prod before me with a c0der
who has quit, and one fake (broken) one with me. As you can guess the story of
my production is yet more sad than yours: originally being a rather experienced
Pascal/Delphi programmer i started learninhg C after joininhg them, since i
expected someone else to help me with programming and debuggung if i do it in C.
After 2 months of hard work and rewrites which were gradually better, but still
didn't work, i fell into a kind of coding-depression and refused to program
anything at all, but by now i start to program again. As Cyclops are not an
established demogroup, the demos itself are intended to be humrous as oppsed to
technically stunning, so seing anything ready would be a great fun. And as you
mentioned Allegro and i read the manual, i decided i could revive that broken
demo, probably in part using Allegro, and porting it to either C++ or D or
Sather.

C was apparently a great shock to me. :) but during this no-coding time i have
been exploring different languages and safe programming techniques, and i
believe i'm ready for a comeback. 

If you're looking for a project to contribute to, i may invite you to our
demogroup - mail me at (miticlub at tiscali dot de). Another really important
and interesting thing to do would be an utility to convert C headers into D
importa automatically. I don't think i'll be starting any project alone now.

The br0ken Demo is called T-time and was intended to be textmode - look at our
previous demo
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=6984

The next one shall be called "Numedia Frogs vs. Invader Space Cyclops" :>


|
| I didn't know Allegro so far. As i can see, it's much higher-level and
| more powerful than libSDL.
|

I don't know libSDL or TinyPTC, and I've never played with DirectX. In fact,
this is my first experience with Allegro too. I don't know how it came to my
mind.


Because it was already there at DOS times - while libSDL is a new thing and was
primarily developed for Linux and Windows - DOS port came later, but i don't
know whether anyone has ever used it.


| Allegro seems to contain everything ready-made... So i guess it does
| make sense to port it.
I guess I should continue then.


May i be of help?

-i.
May 21 2003
parent "Carlos Santander B." <carlos8294 msn.com> writes:
"Ilya Minkov" <Ilya_member pathlink.com> escribiσ en el mensaje
news:bafn09$22c0$1 digitaldaemon.com...
|
| If you're looking for a project to contribute to, i may invite you to our
| demogroup - mail me at (miticlub at tiscali dot de). Another really
important
| and interesting thing to do would be an utility to convert C headers into
D
| importa automatically. I don't think i'll be starting any project alone
now.

I started class this week, and it seems to be a very busy semester, but if I
can get a workaround to it, I'll see if I feel like doing it.

|
| >I don't know libSDL or TinyPTC, and I've never played with DirectX. In
fact,
| >this is my first experience with Allegro too. I don't know how it came to
my
| >mind.
|
| Because it was already there at DOS times - while libSDL is a new thing
and was
| primarily developed for Linux and Windows - DOS port came later, but i
don't
| know whether anyone has ever used it.

Probably that's why.

|
| May i be of help?

Help is always appreciated, especially since I started class this week.

|
| -i.
|
|

—————————————————————————
Carlos Santander


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