Digital Mars - c++ - Latest Version: assorted stuff...

↑ ↓ ← → "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> writes:

I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily basis
(even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler. Virtually
all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on
Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the
newer versions.

Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10
years?
-----------------------------
Some comments:
1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still
gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0)


2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your STL
testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I upgrade
the IDE?


3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer
compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess you
need to check
your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later if
reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to
quickly revert to 7.6)


4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with
7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take it
up.


5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller
test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'.

Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!

Apr 04 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

I'm glad you enjoy it!

1. I'll have a look at it.
2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay for
sale. We are also preparing a CD which  will have the latest IDDE on it.
3. Please post a bug report.
4. Yes, please post a bug report in the STL group.
5. I'll have a look at it.

-Walter

Rajiv Bhagwat wrote in message <9aepm3$2rbb$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily basis
(even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler. Virtually
all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on
Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the
newer versions.

Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10
years?
-----------------------------
Some comments:
1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still
gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0)


2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your


testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I


the IDE?


3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer
compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess


need to check
your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later if
reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to
quickly revert to 7.6)


4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with
7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take


up.


5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller
test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'.

Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!

Apr 04 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

1. The keyword is recognized as a keyword, and that's it (simply meaning
that you won't be able to declare a variable named 'mutable'). Yes, that
means it'll get compilation errors. I'll look into having the parser ignore
it in declarations.

5. I just tried it and it works. Can you provide more details? Are you using
the command line compiler or the IDDE one?

Walter wrote in message <9af7gs$u8$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
I'm glad you enjoy it!

1. I'll have a look at it.
2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay for
sale. We are also preparing a CD which  will have the latest IDDE on it.
3. Please post a bug report.
4. Yes, please post a bug report in the STL group.
5. I'll have a look at it.

-Walter

Rajiv Bhagwat wrote in message <9aepm3$2rbb$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily




(even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler.




all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on
Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the
newer versions.

Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10
years?
-----------------------------
Some comments:
1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still
gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0)


2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your


testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I


the IDE?


3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer
compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess


need to check
your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later




reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to
quickly revert to 7.6)


4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with
7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take


up.


5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller
test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'.

Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!

Apr 04 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> writes:

Dear Walter,

Downloaded 812. My notes:

1. 'mutable': not yet implemented. Atleast, ignore the keyword. A fix for
now:
#ifdef __SC__
#define mutable
#endif

2. 812 'sc' shows wrong version: 8.0B0 -> change to 8.1B2 by patching sc.exe
at B0C6 and B0C8. This is essential for me: I am using batch files to switch
compiler versions for fallback - and would like to know the compiler version
being used at any time. Request Walter to fix such minor irritants.

3. The compiler.htm (800) contained some extranous <code>...</code> which
caused compilation errors with 812. Removed those, it now compiles ok. But
even the corrected file chokes 800 and the computer with it. (The
compiler.htm with 812 is much smaller and does not boast to be compilable!)

4. 800 snn.lib bug seems to have vanished in 812. These combinations give
the following results: (bug only for -mn)
760 sc, 760 snn.lib: ok
800 sc, 800 snn.lib: bug
800 sc, 760 snn.lib: ok  <--- Older snn, no problem
812 sc, 812 snn.lib: ok  <--- works, no need to use older snn
800 sc, 812 snn.lib: bug <--- In short, don't use 800!

5. 812 breaks whatever part of STL which was working. Particularly, use of
"__out" as a parameter name in stl_algo.h breaks as the compiler uses
"__out" as a reserved word. A workaround: (use before #include of stl
headers):
#ifdef __SC__
#define __out __out1
#endif

All this refers to SGI-STL as downloaded from the digitalmars web site.


6. Use of "string" header causes a compilation error in same 'stl_algo.h'
line 200. It looks like JAK was already there and is working on it.

7. Newer IDE must be from 7.5, which I have not loaded - as I STILL need the
ability to debug 16 bit apps. So, quick testing of STL using supplied .prj
files gets postponed in my case.

------------------
Some of these have already been answered by you. These anyway are my notes
during porting. As I could sort out problems with whatever little STL I use,
I will continue to use 812 in place of 760. (I had refrained from porting to
800). Thanks for quick reply, though.
- Rajiv

Apr 04 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an
introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll
have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much
that'll take.

There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we
have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes
justify a slicker, more automated system.

I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable,
but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to
download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by
download. The basic console version will likely remain free.

The CD version will include:

o    command line tools
o    IDDE (environment)
o    support for win32s and win16 development
o    debugger
o    full library source
o    documentation in html format
o    all kinds of resource editors
o    licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples
o    and of course, it'll be collectible <g>

-Walter

Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
 2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay




 sale. We are also preparing a CD which  will have the latest IDDE on it.


I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost, and
when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about


our grubbies on it?

Apr 04 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> writes:

I would say I can send you a bank draft of US$50 in your name and you
can post the CD to me.  Even with the falling Australian dollars below
US$0.48, this is still a "good" price.



Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:9agus2$v5n$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an
 introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll
 have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much
 that'll take.

 There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we
 have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes
 justify a slicker, more automated system.

 I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable,
 but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to
 download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by
 download. The basic console version will likely remain free.

 The CD version will include:

 o    command line tools
 o    IDDE (environment)
 o    support for win32s and win16 development
 o    debugger
 o    full library source
 o    documentation in html format
 o    all kinds of resource editors
 o    licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples
 o    and of course, it'll be collectible <g>

 -Walter

 Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
 2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay




 sale. We are also preparing a CD which  will have the latest IDDE on it.


I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost, and
when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about


our grubbies on it?

Apr 05 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again.

        I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!


Kar Gay Lim wrote in message <9ahg6m$18id$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
I would say I can send you a bank draft of US$50 in your name and you
can post the CD to me.  Even with the falling Australian dollars below
US$0.48, this is still a "good" price.



Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message


 The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an
 introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll
 have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much
 that'll take.

 There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we
 have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher




 justify a slicker, more automated system.

 I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is




 but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to
 download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by
 download. The basic console version will likely remain free.

 The CD version will include:

 o    command line tools
 o    IDDE (environment)
 o    support for win32s and win16 development
 o    debugger
 o    full library source
 o    documentation in html format
 o    all kinds of resource editors
 o    licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples
 o    and of course, it'll be collectible <g>

 -Walter

 Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
 2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay




 sale. We are also preparing a CD which  will have the latest IDDE on








I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost,






when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about


our grubbies on it?

Apr 05 2001

↑ ↓ ← → void 127.0.0.1 (Robert La Fert�) writes:

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in
<9ai4d8$1j25$1 digitaldaemon.com>: 

This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again.
        I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!


(sorry for the bad syntax, english is not my native language)

I remember a long time ago...

This takes place in the famous C_ECHO on Fidonet - way before the Internet 
was popular!  I was a newbie then, and learning C on my own.  Of course, I 
did learn a lot just by reading, but I had to ask a few stupid questions!  
What's a pointer, why is scanf so bad, etc..

I remember asking a question to which I received a few "RTFM" and "puhleez" 
answers.  I don't remember what that question was, I think it was something 
about the * parameter in the printf-series of functions.  I got **one** 
message that was worth it.

An explanation about 2-3 screenfuls long, detailing why the functions 
worked that way, how it could and should be used, and a very needed 
encouragement near the end, a pat in the back that kept me learning.  I'm 
quite sure if I search a bit, I can find the printout I kept pinned to the 
wall for a long time!

The message was signed "Walter Bright".  It took me several months to 
discover who that Mr.Bright was (Bob Stout told me later as I was 
enquiring about his MFL library).  And when I did, I couldn't believe that 
a person who writes compilers for a living would take the time to answer 
questions in C_ECHO, let alone trivial questions such as mine.

Let's say I was very happy when I accidentally discovered the DigitalMars 
website!  

I don't know if this can add to your motivation, but what you did in the 
late 80's sure did mean a great deal to me.  

Robert

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

That is nice to hear that I could have such an influence. If you can find
the message, how about emailing it to me? Maybe I can put it in the FAQ <g>.

Thanks!


Robert La Fert� wrote in message ...
"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in
<9ai4d8$1j25$1 digitaldaemon.com>:

This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again.
        I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!


(sorry for the bad syntax, english is not my native language)

I remember a long time ago...

This takes place in the famous C_ECHO on Fidonet - way before the Internet
was popular!  I was a newbie then, and learning C on my own.  Of course, I
did learn a lot just by reading, but I had to ask a few stupid questions!
What's a pointer, why is scanf so bad, etc..

I remember asking a question to which I received a few "RTFM" and "puhleez"
answers.  I don't remember what that question was, I think it was something
about the * parameter in the printf-series of functions.  I got **one**
message that was worth it.

An explanation about 2-3 screenfuls long, detailing why the functions
worked that way, how it could and should be used, and a very needed
encouragement near the end, a pat in the back that kept me learning.  I'm
quite sure if I search a bit, I can find the printout I kept pinned to the
wall for a long time!

The message was signed "Walter Bright".  It took me several months to
discover who that Mr.Bright was (Bob Stout told me later as I was
enquiring about his MFL library).  And when I did, I couldn't believe that
a person who writes compilers for a living would take the time to answer
questions in C_ECHO, let alone trivial questions such as mine.

Let's say I was very happy when I accidentally discovered the DigitalMars
website!

I don't know if this can add to your motivation, but what you did in the
late 80's sure did mean a great deal to me.

Robert

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Matt Morgan" <geckofood yahoo.com> writes:

 o    IDDE (environment)
 o    debugger


Are these two items going to be new, or are these the same we had with SC++
7.5? I have no problem shelling out the $$$ either way, as I am mostly
interested in the compiler itself. Besides, I just bought a minivan for my
wife for our anniversary, so I doubt she would have a problem with my
spending $25 on myself... ;o)

Now, here is a good question....With the introduction of Optlink, I lost the
ability to use FlashView to debug X32VM applications. Will the linker be
X32-friendly? This would be a big plus for me, personally, but not enough to
deter me from buying in. If the linker will be Optlink, well, forget I
asked.....

Another useful question -- I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to Windows
programming (admittedly, I am primarily a UNIX geek) and rely on AppExpress
to get started. Will the new compiler/IDDE combo pick up a project as such
and run with it?

 o    and of course, it'll be collectible <g>



That's always a plus. <G>

Apr 05 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The
improvements are in the underlying tools.

The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with
debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech
blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over
blink.

AppExpress will be included.


Matt Morgan wrote in message <9aj411$24l4$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
 o    IDDE (environment)
 o    debugger


Are these two items going to be new, or are these the same we had with SC++
7.5? I have no problem shelling out the $$$ either way, as I am mostly
interested in the compiler itself. Besides, I just bought a minivan for my
wife for our anniversary, so I doubt she would have a problem with my
spending $25 on myself... ;o)

Now, here is a good question....With the introduction of Optlink, I lost


ability to use FlashView to debug X32VM applications. Will the linker be
X32-friendly? This would be a big plus for me, personally, but not enough


deter me from buying in. If the linker will be Optlink, well, forget I
asked.....

Another useful question -- I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to Windows
programming (admittedly, I am primarily a UNIX geek) and rely on AppExpress
to get started. Will the new compiler/IDDE combo pick up a project as such
and run with it?

 o    and of course, it'll be collectible <g>



That's always a plus. <G>

Apr 05 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> writes:

Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:9ajfo2$i4r$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The
 improvements are in the underlying tools.


Do you know anyone who holds the source code to the IDDE?  Can
it be improved?  For example, I would love to turn off the "feature"
of it adding comments like the "// add your code here" when a new
function is created using ClassExpress.

Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE,
Was that a branch off?  You know, that the Expresso thing.

Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw
the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up.
There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move
along with the so called .NET wave.

 AppExpress will be included.


AppExpress only generate the skeletal application.  Do you mean
ClassExpress as well?  The MFC/ATL has moved on so much that the
code generated by AppExpress or ClassExpress may not be compatible
with MFC > 4.2.  I remember ClassExpress can delete code entered
by hand and I stopped using it for a long time.

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

Kar Gay Lim wrote in message <9akfdb$1gig$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message


 The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The
 improvements are in the underlying tools.


it be improved?  For example, I would love to turn off the "feature"
of it adding comments like the "// add your code here" when a new
function is created using ClassExpress.




We have the source to our IDDE. What's wrong with "add your code here"? <g>


Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE,
Was that a branch off?  You know, that the Expresso thing.


Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw
the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up.
There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move
along with the so called .NET wave.


Visual Cafe is being developed and sold by Webgain now. We will not be
supporting java. As you've probably guessed <g>, all the digitalmars web
site pages are hand made.


 AppExpress will be included.


ClassExpress as well?  The MFC/ATL has moved on so much that the
code generated by AppExpress or ClassExpress may not be compatible
with MFC > 4.2.  I remember ClassExpress can delete code entered
by hand and I stopped using it for a long time.



The new IDDE will include ClassExpress too. The express tools are wonderful
for quickly generating apps to solve particular problems, but the price is,
as you note, limits on the flexibility.

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

Walter wrote:

 We have the source to our IDDE. What's wrong with "add your code here"? <g>


Nothing I guess, but it would be great if it could be turned
off.

Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE,
Was that a branch off?  You know, that the Expresso thing.




Yes!
Actually I think it is part of the latest Symantec IDDE which is
not the SC++
7.50 IDDE.

Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw
the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up.
There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move
along with the so called .NET wave.


 Visual Cafe is being developed and sold by Webgain now. We will not be
 supporting java. As you've probably guessed <g>, all the digitalmars web
 site pages are hand made.


<g>
There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE
although
Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE.
AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++...
Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many
other HTML page
development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite
powerful when it was
just released. I would suspect it went to WebGain with Visual
CAFE. I have no
idea where newer versions could be obtained.

Don't worry, be Kneppie!
Jan

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> writes:

Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message
news:3ACE0D19.32FB3EB2 smartsoft.cc...
 Walter wrote:


 There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE
 although
 Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE.
 AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++...
 Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many
 other HTML page
 development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite
 powerful when it was
 just released.


It is still has features that others don't do very well!!!  e.g. CSS editing.
Boy I love it.... I am still using it!!!

 I would suspect it went to WebGain with Visual
 CAFE. I have no
 idea where newer versions could be obtained.


I guess I should explain what my thoughts are... If I have a couple of
million dollars, I would love to get together with you all to do this:....

Love it or hate it, we can't avoid not using Microsoft products. The
push lately from MS is the .NET thing. And guess what, the only
company that will support C# is Microsoft.  Since Walter did Java,
I don't see any reason why a second C# compiler cannot be produced.

For web developments, you need two things - server side scripting and
client side scripting. Since Walter has his own scripting tools (faster),
I can see that there is a place for them - create an integrated HTML
editor with scripting tools, allowing you to compile or emulate the
server side scripts and deploy when built.

Anyway, I'll just dream on.....  Back into reality now....

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

Kar Gay Lim wrote:

 There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE
 although
 Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE.
 AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++...
 Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many
 other HTML page
 development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite
 powerful when it was
 just released.


 It is still has features that others don't do very well!!!  e.g. CSS editing.
 Boy I love it.... I am still using it!!!


Are you kidding me?!
Check any of the following sites...
As far as there is a 'decent' page, it's probably done in Visual Page...

http://www.digitaldaemon.com/
http://www.digitaldaemon.net/
http://www.digitaldaemon.org/
http://www.digitaldeamon.com/ (for those that make the ae / eamistake!)
http://www.digitaldeamon.net/
http://www.digitaldeamon.org/
http://www.digitalthunderbolt.com/
http://www.digitalthunderbolt.net/
http://www.digitalthunderbolt.org/
http://www.digitalmilkyway.com/
http://www.digitalmilkyway.net/
http://www.digitalmilkyway.org/
http://www.dutchdaemon.com/
http://www.dutchdaemon.net/
http://www.dutchdaemon.org/
http://www.eternalinfinity.com/
http://www.eternalinfinity.net/
http://www.eternalinfinity.org/
http://www.janknepper.com/
http://www.janknepper.net/
http://www.janknepper.org/
http://www.freebsd-usa.com/
http://www.freebsd-usa.net/
http://www.freebsd-usa.org/
http://www.surfsmurf.net/
http://www.surfsmurf.org/
http://www.virtualsmurfer.com/
http://www.virtualsmurfer.net/
http://www.virtualsmurfer.org/
http://www.smartsoft.cc/
http://www.smartsoft.ws/
http://www.jan.cc/
http://www.jak.org/
http://www.lgal.org/
http://www.lightfeet.com/
http://www.animalaidtour.com/
http://www.animalaidtour.net/
http://www.animalaidtour.org/
http://www.pianoprincess.com/
http://www.lindagenteel.com/

  I would suspect it went to WebGain with Visual
 CAFE. I have no
 idea where newer versions could be obtained.


 I guess I should explain what my thoughts are... If I have a couple of
 million dollars, I would love to get together with you all to do this:....


<g>
So would I, but not yet!
It's cool enough to be able to run a T1 as service to clients/customers and
have the
ability to support the Digital Mars compilers this way.

 Love it or hate it, we can't avoid not using Microsoft products. The
 push lately from MS is the .NET thing. And guess what, the only
 company that will support C# is Microsoft.  Since Walter did Java,
 I don't see any reason why a second C# compiler cannot be produced.

 For web developments, you need two things - server side scripting and
 client side scripting. Since Walter has his own scripting tools (faster),
 I can see that there is a place for them - create an integrated HTML
 editor with scripting tools, allowing you to compile or emulate the
 server side scripts and deploy when built.


Great IDEA!
Now... How do we get the Visual Page source code....<g>

Jan

Apr 06 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:

 Hey guys, this branch is getting too deep and diversified.. Come back to
 root level <g>!


Nag!

 1. The C# idea is not bad, but who wants to follow standards set only by
 Microsoft - they will change language specs faster than any compititor can
 keep up with. Besides, they don't want other C# implementations - they want
 you to USE the language....

 If anything else, think about a pure C++ interpreter... so that *existing*
 code could be utilised easily. Don't know how practical that is...


I think it was meant with C++ instead of C#...

 2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a variation
 of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect for
 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier for
 maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths of
 trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.


Have you ever tried Visual Page?

Jan

Apr 07 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> writes:

Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message
news:3ACF6915.DC7CC2B3 smartsoft.cc...
 Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:


 2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a variation
 of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect for
 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier for
 maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths of
 trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.


 Have you ever tried Visual Page?

 Jan


Here here.

The ex-Symantec news group on Visual Page has only this trend.  Most
people says, unless you really have tried VP, you haven't really got it to say.

I am also developing web server applications, I have yet to product a class
library but at the moment, I already have an integrated CGI/ISAM server
tools which only requires a C/C++ compiler and no other tools required,
not even SQL server etc.  That's why I said, integrating a visual tool like
VP and with serverside C/C++ support is going to be COOL.

Symantec and now Webgain is nearly there - now with Visual Cafe Java
and Dreamweaver instead of VP. They require a large download because
of JDK's.  What if you can have a light weight CGI + VP type of feature
for nearly 80% of typical website?  That is what I am trying to produce
now. I already have a company doing it today but it is not an integrated
solution.

In the mean time, I still have to run things with VC--/DMC and other
cross compilers.

Kar Gay Lim
Head of Research and Development,
Macquarie Medical Systems
Sydney, Australia.
www.macquariehealth.com.au

Apr 07 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> writes:

I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches:

1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML
2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code

I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the name
surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general impression
from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the
documentation / users manual?)

The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me much
more, so that each can be varied independant of the other. No mixing. I do
use the visual editors during the page design, but suck the design in a
different format once done. The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is
suggesting exactly that.

Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do
projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is where
the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!

Kar Gay Lim <kagay kimay.net> wrote in message
news:9ao8tf$liq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message


 Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:


 2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a






 of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect






 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier






 maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths






 trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.


 Have you ever tried Visual Page?

 Jan


 Here here.

 The ex-Symantec news group on Visual Page has only this trend.  Most
 people says, unless you really have tried VP, you haven't really got it to


 I am also developing web server applications, I have yet to product a


 library but at the moment, I already have an integrated CGI/ISAM server
 tools which only requires a C/C++ compiler and no other tools required,
 not even SQL server etc.  That's why I said, integrating a visual tool


 VP and with serverside C/C++ support is going to be COOL.

 Symantec and now Webgain is nearly there - now with Visual Cafe Java
 and Dreamweaver instead of VP. They require a large download because
 of JDK's.  What if you can have a light weight CGI + VP type of feature
 for nearly 80% of typical website?  That is what I am trying to produce
 now. I already have a company doing it today but it is not an integrated
 solution.

 In the mean time, I still have to run things with VC--/DMC and other
 cross compilers.

 Kar Gay Lim
 Head of Research and Development,
 Macquarie Medical Systems
 Sydney, Australia.
 www.macquariehealth.com.au

Apr 08 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:

 I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches:

 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML
 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code


Agreed.

 I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the name
 surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general impression
 from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the
 documentation / users manual?)


Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know.
It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages.
I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML designer add
Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.

 The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me much
 more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.


Yup!
Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).

 No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck the
 design in a
 different format once done.


You'll love Visual Page for this part.

 The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.


Same here.

 Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do
 projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is where
 the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!


"been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I have
spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all they had
done was read an M$ ad...
Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with them
(after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were talking
about.... :-(

The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and really
have done I LOT better!

Jan

Apr 09 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> writes:

A quick search found this link about Visual Page:
http://www.irt.org/software/sw016/
Please take a look.
- Rajiv


Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message
news:3AD1AB6E.B707C0E6 smartsoft.cc...
 Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:

 I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches:

 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML
 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code


 Agreed.

 I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the




 surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general




 from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the
 documentation / users manual?)


 Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know.
 It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages.
 I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML


 Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.

 The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me




 more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.


 Yup!
 Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).

 No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck




 design in a
 different format once done.


 You'll love Visual Page for this part.

 The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.


 Same here.

 Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do
 projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is




 the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!


 "been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I


 spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all


 done was read an M$ ad...
 Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with


 (after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were


 about.... :-(

 The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and


 have done I LOT better!

 Jan

Apr 09 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

I had a look and obviously this is mostly true if you compare the current
Visual Page (now about 3-4 years old I guess) with the current competitors.
Visual Page is plain and simple. It's alomost 100% WYSIWYG as any other HTML
designer.
I experience it as GREAT that it does not do any Java Script, DHTML or any of
that other stuff that makes most browsers crash anyways. It's great that it
creates COMPATIBLE HTML that can be viewed in ANY browser instead of stuff that
only works in the latest the greatest if you have all services packs
(additional viruses) and registry screwers installed.
I actually thing, seeing what your background is that you would like a tool
like Visual Page for the HTML design of your sites. If you have a Visual Cafe
around you'll be able to find it somewhere on the CD-ROM.

Also, I don't know about other here, but I personally rather have a tool with
an outdated look that works than something with an Office 97 or 2000 look that
crashes on me all the time...

Jan



Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:

 A quick search found this link about Visual Page:
 http://www.irt.org/software/sw016/
 Please take a look.
 - Rajiv

 Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message
 news:3AD1AB6E.B707C0E6 smartsoft.cc...
 Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:

 I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches:

 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML
 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code


 Agreed.

 I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the




 surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general




 from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the
 documentation / users manual?)


 Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know.
 It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages.
 I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML


 Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.

 The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me




 more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.


 Yup!
 Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).

 No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck




 design in a
 different format once done.


 You'll love Visual Page for this part.

 The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.


 Same here.

 Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do
 projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is




 the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!


 "been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I


 spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all


 done was read an M$ ad...
 Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with


 (after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were


 about.... :-(

 The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and


 have done I LOT better!

 Jan

Apr 09 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "M " <geckofood yahoo.com> writes:

 The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with
 debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech
 blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over
 blink.


I talked to FlashTek not too long before they went away. According to the
guy on the phone (not sure who it was, don't remember his name), he said
that starting with SC++ 7.0, the linker scrambled the debug info in such a
manner that the FlashView debugger was not able to decipher it correctly. If
I wanted to debug X32 applications, I needed to use SC++ 6.1 with link386
from 6.0. There were a few people who were able to debug X32 apps written
with 7.x, but I was never able to make it happen.

I would be willing to try blink, if it will solve the problem. Where is that
available?

(granted, X32 apps are a bit dated now, but there is the infrequent occasion
that I get to fiddle with them)

Apr 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

You can try this one. No guarantees!

M  wrote in message <9auovo$15ol$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
 The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with
 debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech
 blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over
 blink.


I talked to FlashTek not too long before they went away. According to the
guy on the phone (not sure who it was, don't remember his name), he said
that starting with SC++ 7.0, the linker scrambled the debug info in such a
manner that the FlashView debugger was not able to decipher it correctly.


I wanted to debug X32 applications, I needed to use SC++ 6.1 with link386
from 6.0. There were a few people who were able to debug X32 apps written
with 7.x, but I was never able to make it happen.

I would be willing to try blink, if it will solve the problem. Where is


available?

(granted, X32 apps are a bit dated now, but there is the infrequent


that I get to fiddle with them)

Apr 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> writes:

Walter wrote:
 
 The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an
 introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll
 have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much
 that'll take.
 
 There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we
 have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes
 justify a slicker, more automated system.
 
 I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable,
 but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to
 download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by
 download. The basic console version will likely remain free.
 



Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings
about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that
downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common
place.

HTH

Cesar

Jul 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

 Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings
 about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that
 downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common
 place.


Eventhough ISO images of Linux and FreeBSD are downloadable I do not concider it
practical. One of the reasons I am subscribed to always receive the latest
STABLE version of FreeBSD on CD-ROM. Once a version is installed I keep it
up-to-date through CVSup and just recompile everything once every two months. As
a matter in fact, there are a lot more people keeping their systems up-to-date
through CVS(up) than by downloading ISO images as that is very impractical for
many reasons.

An other reason for selling a CD with the complete compiler might be that
efforts with regard to maintain and update the compiler might need to be
justified. Not everything in this world is for free. People do need to pay their
bills and such...

Jan

Jul 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> writes:

Jan Knepper wrote:
 
 Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings
 about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that
 downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common
 place.


 Eventhough ISO images of Linux and FreeBSD are downloadable I do not concider
it
 practical. One of the reasons I am subscribed to always receive the latest
 STABLE version of FreeBSD on CD-ROM. Once a version is installed I keep it
 up-to-date through CVSup and just recompile everything once every two months.
As
 a matter in fact, there are a lot more people keeping their systems up-to-date
 through CVS(up) than by downloading ISO images as that is very impractical for
 many reasons.


I agree that a lot of persons 'bootstrap' their systems from a CD
(floppies in the 'ole' days ;-) and them keep them uptodate through
other mechanisms.

More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where
bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and
used to burn CDs for others.

Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a
easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...

 
 An other reason for selling a CD with the complete compiler might be that
 efforts with regard to maintain and update the compiler might need to be
 justified. Not everything in this world is for free. People do need to pay
their
 bills and such...


I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to
consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and
Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the
subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates
during a period of time (a year), for example.

Best regards,

Cesar

Jul 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> writes:

 More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where
 bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and
 used to burn CDs for others.


The server supports REGET as far as I know. I however have seen quite a few
problems
with REGET...

 Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a
 easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...


They are available via Amazon.com Auctions. Customers familiar with Amazon.com
can use
Amazon's payment system to pay for the CD's.
If you still don't like that, you can also FAX me your order and credit card
data.
(Visa and MasterCard only).

 I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to
 consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and
 Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the
 subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates
 during a period of time (a year), for example.


We have been discussing that and I think in the near future we will get to a
system
like that. Actually, FreeBSD has had 'subscription' for years. I like it, it's
a great
system.

Jan

Jul 10 2001

↑ ↓ ← → Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> writes:

Jan Knepper wrote:
 
 More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where
 bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and
 used to burn CDs for others.


 The server supports REGET as far as I know. I however have seen quite a few
problems
 with REGET...
 


Well... we still live in a imperfect wold, isn't it? ;-)

 Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a
 easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...


 They are available via Amazon.com Auctions. Customers familiar with Amazon.com
can use
 Amazon's payment system to pay for the CD's.
 If you still don't like that, you can also FAX me your order and credit card
data.
 (Visa and MasterCard only).
 


Great! Will check which one and e-mail you.

 I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to
 consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and
 Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the
 subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates
 during a period of time (a year), for example.


 We have been discussing that and I think in the near future we will get to a
system
 like that. Actually, FreeBSD has had 'subscription' for years. I like it, it's
a great
 system.
 


OK. Please also consider havig it published in cover CDs. May bring
awareness to the compiler.

Cesar

Jul 12 2001